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Herman Cain Thinks 9-9-9 Is A Really Bad Idea

or at least he did only eleven months ago.

Last week I took a couple of looks at Herman Cain’s tax plan masquerading an economic plan called 9-9-9 (here | here)

What struck me about the plan was the extremely non-conservative nature of the plan (for the past 30 years conservatives have opposed new taxes or increases in existing taxes), in this case the implementation of a national sales tax, and the naïveté involved in proposing a brand new tax based upon the underlying assumption that no one will ever raise that tax.

Much to my surprise, or not, I found that his supporters were completely in favor of a new federal tax on retail sales and that the idea that said tax would ever increase was roundly discounted as bogus and a strawman. This despite the fact that the current federal income tax had a top rate of 7% when it was first introduced and the VAT debuted in Britain at 8% and now is a healthy 20%

Today I found out that Herman Cain agrees with me. A national retail tax is a really bad idea.

Back on November 21, 2010, Herman Cain authored an opinion piece that appeared in several locations under the title Don’t Be VAT Stupid. You can see it was picked up by outlets as diverse as Whirled Nuts Daily, Daily Caller…. and Red State.

The diary received quite a few recommendations:

Recommenders: Scope, E Pluribus Unum, civil truth, eastbaylarry, penguin2, izoneguy,Vassar Bushmills, fpete13527, JimTomasik, RottDawg, fedsocdan, Beaglescout, 
Castor, acat, ladyimpactohio,
scorpio0679, SusanAnne Hiller, Joe_Schmo, gekster, 
Mike gamecock DeVine, texasgalt, pilgrim, Mary Beth, Finrod, redneck_hippie

I’ll provide this extended quote from Mr. Cain’s Red State post:

Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

First, we have a spending problem in Washington, D.C. not a revenue problem. The Commission claims their goal is to reduce the deficits by $4 trillion over the next decade. The task force says its plan would save $6 trillion by 2020. It’s sort of like dueling promises that would never happen, because when has a proposed cut in Washington D.C. ever produced the intended savings over 10 years? Never!

Even worse is reason number two: In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing their national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure. After discovering many of the tax grenades in the recently passed health care deform bill, which is already driving costs up and access down, it would be real easy for an overzealous bureaucrat to insert the language in the legislation “national retail and wholesale” tax.

For the liberal naysayers who say that would not happen, you lose! Just look at the Social Security system, Medicare and Medicaid. Over the years since their inception, taxes have gone up, benefits have gone down and they are still on a path of insolvency.

Both the Commission and the Task Force say very little about how costs would be contained, because that’s the real big bodacious problem. Even if their plans could achieve their stated goals over the next 10 years, the current administration and Congress have increased spending nearly $4 trillion in the last two years. And the only hope that it will slow down is the new change of control in the House of Representatives.
Giving the administration and Congress another tool to tax us and confuse us is like giving an alcoholic a key to the liquor store with no supervision, only to discover that he locks the door after he is safely inside.

A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country.

The third reason the national retail sales tax on top of all the taxes we already pay is a bad idea, is that there is already proposed legislation that replaces all of the federal taxes we pay. It replaces all current revenue. It supercharges our national economic growth, and puts the power of taxation back into the hands of the people who spend their money.

You know what, Mr. Cain is absolutely correct on all three points. The question for his supporters is what happened between November 2010 and this summer that persuaded Mr. Cain to toss his perfectly sensible opposition to a national sales tax under the bus in favor of 9-9-9? And while they are at it they should ask themselves the same question.

 

COMMENTS

  • Finrod

    Herman Cain Is A Poo-Poo Head

    Herman Cain Ran Over My Dog

    Everyone But Perry Is Leading Us Down The Road To Perdition

    • streiff

      not me. What happened?

    • gator_hoo

      I notice that you haven’t argued that something Streiff has said isn’t true, only that you don’t like him pointing out.

      I think with Cain, who doesn’t have ANY record of years of service to review, we need to be especially careful to vet him.

      • streiff

        It was Palin, now it is Cain. If you treat either of them as politicians (which they are) and not as deities or icons (which they aren’t) you get criticized. Just recall Erick’s diary predicting Palin would not run.

      • itallmatters

        I like him – he’s not a seasoned politician – which is a BIG plus – he is NOT a Community Organizer – another BIG PLUS – and I believe he is smarter than the sitting POTUS – which I know, would NOT take a whole lot – but Cain is a very educated individual with many accolades in his resume and many successful careers throughout his adult life. I like him better than Romney any day.

    • APA Guy

      Cain’s plan has many strengths (remove payroll taxes…lower income taxes…good so far…)…and glaring weaknesses (new tax…new tax…”empowerment zones”…did I mention new tax?). It is our duty to question the tenets of his economic plan and point out inconsistencies. Don’t pin your displeasure of the vetting process on streiff.

    • APA Guy

      Cain’s plan has many strengths (remove payroll taxes…lower income taxes…good so far…)…and glaring weaknesses (new tax…new tax…”empowerment zones”…did I mention new tax?). It is our duty to question the tenets of his economic plan and point out inconsistencies. Don’t pin your displeasure of the vetting process on streiff.

      • dio55

        rah rah Romney
        rah rah romney
        rah rah romney
        For tis is the only person your obsession with cain helps
        you can no longer attack 999 on its merits having been slapped down by Art Laffer Paul Ryan Larry Kudlow And Club For Growth so now you resort to ALINSKY semantics . I think youve gone off the deep end and it sure does look pathetic to the rest of us

        • Aaron Gardner

          Who is it that is engaging in Alinsky tactics?

        • Bill S

          Knock it off before I do it for you.

        • APA Guy

          Yell at the top of your lungs…run away screaming “lalalalalalala…can’t hear you!”.

          Childish…grow up and debate like an adult.

          • dio55

            What else do you all need to know First Steriff attacks 999 then people like the architect of the The Reagan Economy makes him look like a fool now he says cain hates his own plan blah blah blah . This is a debate . no this is yet another Hitpiece and yes there is only Cain and Romney left. And sorry I cannot spend every minuite of my time responding to old dead topics I am not in my moms basment I have a job and still make time to respond when i can from a blackberry in another country where i am forced to work because obama hates the oil industry. And i have to listen to the last 6 cain haters who can’t accept that 999 will never be the weapon they want it to be. move on everyone else has, read my past posts and you will see i am no Cain fanatic just a Realist who is tired of the conservative CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD. cain has a 86%approval 7%disapproval rating among tea partiers according to the latest Rasmussen poll (see my other post). so Nobody is listening to you guys NOBODY

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            a brain.

          • dio55

            To know what you are talking about. read my other posts . My point of view is WINNING

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            promote your case.

          • dio55

            facepalm

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            As it happens, I am not a “Perry supporter” of any variety. I would have invited you to use Mr Google to check for any support you might find from me.

            In fact, I do find a bunch of things about Perry I happen to like. I also find a bunch of stuff about Cain I like. Then there’s the negatives for both. Frankly, even though the first primary is about 90 days away, it’s way too early to force “support” for a candidate.

            The one thing you did accomplish though, was to hang around long enough to validate that I was, in fact, absolutely right about you.

          • lifedontwasteit

            I had to update my just updated list to now…
            17 reason I cannot support Cain.
            http://t.co/igdXe21q

          • Aaron Gardner

            Makes perfect sense.

          • dio55

            Thats the topic was it not, you know THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION

          • streiff

            I plan on being busy washing my hair.

          • Aaron Gardner

            But I wouldn’t expect you to get that.

          • dio55

            Titanic passengers like you really get it .
            I guess its me vs the Inadvertant Romney supporters like i said… genius

          • Aaron Gardner

            nt

          • dio55

            Oh i know MITT ROMNEY who is ten times worse! look i do not care if it “brings down cain” but aparently you are obsessed with it . If art laffer paul ryan and the likes aren’t worried then neither am i . what i am worried about is the Clueless Hapless and Obsessed.. I R S
            Inadvertant Romney Supporter.

          • Aaron Gardner

            He also said he would like Romney as his VP.

            I don’t support Romney, nor do I support Cain. I support Perry and will continue to do so, because that helps Perry.

            When Cain collapses, will you call yourself an Inadvertent* Romney Supporter?

            *Notice that I can spell inadvertent correctly. Not bad for being clueless and hapless.

          • thirstyboots

            Not with Perry though, Perry was supporting Rudy Giuliani.

          • dio55

            he is done this race is between Cain and Romney so i guess i was right all along you are all Romney supporters now
            let me make my position clear .. anybody but romney or ron paul
            if you think perry is going to overcome
            1 guradasil
            2 heartless conservatives on immigration
            3 ni**erhead
            4 mormon cult pastor
            you are dreaming have you noticed i do not attack perry I would happily support him over romney but like i said before i am a realist btw wasn’t perry al gore’s campaign manager in texas while cain was fighting hillarycare along with all other republicans somhow you are able to look past that but find any nutty crap to attack cain..WHY

          • tngal

            put the poll down and walk away slowly and you won’t be hurt. You got to trust me on this. I started out the day mentioning polls and I’ve been hit with everything. If you walk away slow, and whistle, and smile a lot, you’ll be safe. Don’t ever look at what other people are doing or observe their point of view via a poll. It’ll come back to bite ya. :)

          • dio55

            As in every single poll . stop living in la la land (its for your own good)

          • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

            NT

          • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

            notext

          • SoFiMil

            In the short span of time it took for Perry to lose his lead in the polls, the same thing can (and I believe will) happen to Cain. I expect Perry to get back 90%+ of any drop in the polls for Cain.

          • jimmyg

            He is in free fall. I do not think he has a week. He has to do it tomorrow or will solidify his position as an afterthought.

          • acat

            He’s got more room to maneuver than you think…

            Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            And everyone with “tx” on their cyber face shield will boast how he totally kicked butt.

          • jimmyg

            to where I do not know. it seems that he is being advised by the gang who could not shoot straight. Some have attempted to draw an analogy to 2007. I do not think the analogy is apt. McCain was always third and polled within a tight range. Perry started out on top, and now polls in the lower tier of candidates. His debate performances and missteps are killing him..

          • dio55

            67% of perry fundraising came from texas. that shows what we all know no national appeal

          • acat

            Even though Texas is economically best off out of the country…
            Even though Texas has quite a lot of rich donors ..
            Even though Perry hadn’t made much noise about running until this year…

            And you conclude this means he’s not doing well?

            Suuuure.

            Mew

          • Scope

            With Perry’s recently released energy plan, I believe he can count on a huge block of energy sector donations, if they haven’t already jumped on his train. They are the big bucks that will keep his campaign fully funded for the long haul.

          • circlegranch

            Cain plays nice and doesn’t go after Romney, but that’s probably an oversight on his part. Romney burns money making an ad released today about jobs numbers against a guy that he isn’t in real competition with it appears. Not exactly a fiscally responsible way to use those campaign dollars coming from businesses and individuals that are having trouble keeping the lights on these days.

          • SoFiMil

            If we take away Perry’s fundraising from the huge state of Texas, we have to do the same with Romney for a side-by-side comparision. I tried to find Romeny’s state numbers, but was unsuccessful. However, I did find this HuffPo article (which information I could not find elsewhere), stated: “Romney’s campaign has largely been reliant on big-money donors from New York, Utah, Massachusetts and Texas, and that money is expected to continue to flow in.” Now, althought money is money,?Massachusetts and New York are obviously not going to be electoral college winners. Just think this comparison is brutally unfair to Perry.
            ?
            I did find a July 2011 WaPo?article, which stated that 1 in 8 (12.5%) Romney donors were from New York City and its suburbs.

            Hopefully the links worked.

          • gekster

            looks like you are going with what the lefties
            and the MSM are smearing Perry with.
            Why don’t do a search on the RS search box up top to the right and punch in each one of your talking points.
            Get educated and then come back.

          • circlegranch

            Perry is hot on the trail meeting the people. That’s where he excels and that’s where the votes are cast and counted. Fox, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter have all thrown in w/ the lib’s in crowning the moderate. Yesterday, Obama directly addressed Perry’s jobs plan that was announced last week. Why would he bother talking about someone that is an also-ran.

            Slick debaters and polished teleprompter readers fall into the same liability category. They are stiff, unnatural and void of the ability to really connect with average people–the people that are suffering the most.

            Obama shipped healthcare off to the SCOTUS and is walking away from it. He’ll use it as a failure when he debates Romney and pin it on him since he and his advisors created the model. He’ll turn the OWS movement into an argument against Romney.

          • Bill S

            1) You can stop accusing those who don’t like Cain’s plan of being “Romney supporters”, 2) you can leave of your own accord, or 3) I can make you leave.

            Your choice.

    • dio55

      “Herman Cain becomes only the second Republican to take a lead over Obama among likely voters in their surveys” direct quote from scott rasmussen and rasmussen is the in the buisness the… Best

      • gekster

        The polls in Nov. 2007

        Clinton 32%
        Giuliani 22%
        Obama 19%
        Edwards 13%
        McCain 11%
        Thompson 9%
        Romney 7%

        from:
        http://www.gallup.com/poll/102634/Clinton-Eclipses-Giuliani-National-Election-Indicators.aspx

        • dio55

          If thats your metric You really havent been paying attention. There is only Perry Cain and Romney left and perry is too Badly damaged to make a comback so its only Cain And Romney. and just wait till Palin endorses Cain Because she will never endorse Romney Never Just being a realist and Btw intrade has cain within 5 of romney it was 40 a week ago ago

          • gekster

            Listen up a little.

            The poll I posted showed McCain a big looser,
            and Hillary a big winner, 13 points ahead of Obama,
            at the same time, before a general election.

            Since the polls showed who was ahead at the time,
            like you want to, just declare the winner now and have no election.

            Now answer this, who won the primaries, and who won the election,
            regardless of those polls.
            They mean nothig tnis far out from an election, where actual people decide who is the winner and looser.

            Are you being obtuse for the hell of it, or are you a product of public education, or both.

          • thirstyboots

            in their primaries.

          • papabear

            Hmmm. What is the alternative to Cain???

            Global Warming Romney? We also have the multiple choice Romneys Pro-life vs Pro-Choice; Mandated health care insurance & state waivers; Pro Us Jobs vs. outsourcer; etc.

            I would love to see Streiff stick his cards on the table vs. ripping apart the more conservative and consistent candidate (out of the 2 front runners). I would love to see a better alternative to Cain.

            Who is better than Cain?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            That’s who.

          • Bill S

            Definitely not sold on Romney The Flipper, but the other two work (and I am shocked I’m saying that about Newt)

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            He’s still better than Cain in my book.

            Right now I see 3 tiers:

            Tier 1 (The Devil You Know): Gingrich, Perry, Romney.
            Tier 2 (The Devil You Wish You Didn’t Know): Paul, Huntsman
            Tier 3 (The Clueless): Cain, Bachmann

            Yes, I put Cain below Paul & Huntsman. I never thought I’d end up there.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            *I* get….

            It’s late, I’m tired…..

          • papabear

            But the whole Global warming thing w/Nancy Pelosi thing is a tough pill to swallow.

            Likewise, I find Perry’s “I Heart Illegal Immigrant Kids” to be way out of bounds. I can accept the fact that he sucks at debating. I think his handling of the HPV/Gardasil issue was a little misguided, but NOT a big deal. On the other hand, in state tuition for illegals is a BIG deal. $100,000 x 16,000 illegals = $1,600,000,000.

            $1.6 BILLION

            That is an incentive to come across the border for. Once you add in the lack of a fence …

            I have been through the wringer with ICE. It was painful to comply with our immigration law. There was an amazing amount of stupidity and incompetence that we had to deal with. However, I never even thought about breaking the law.

            Perry crossed the line on illegal immigration, and I do not see any way that he could walk it back. I wish I could see it another way – all the other issues are not a big deal. Enacting laws that encourage law breaking = big deal. Telling me that I have no heart because I disagreeing with him = unforgivable.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I agree with them.

          • thirstyboots

            A guy who can’t even organize a campaign? A guy with ideas on how the government should do everything? Newt doesn’t even have the talent to manage a presidential campaign, let alone the WH.

          • Common_Cents

            He is regularly calling out the media and is against the power of bernanke, geithner etc…

            Wonder why he isn’t getting the big wall street money support? Wonder why he isn’t getting media exposure?

            Watch out what you wish for, you just might get another spineless polished wall street, big govt politician that gets steamrolled by the media time and time again.

          • dio55

            what kind of nutty poll is that to compare, clinton??? edwards??? Obama??? err apples,,,,oranges in other words useless and stupid

          • gekster

            The point being missed by you is that polls this far out are basically useless.
            When the primaries were done, and then the general election, those polls didn’t even come close to telling who the winners and loosers were.
            Why am I not suprised that you can’t grasp that simple concept.
            A caveman could see it, heck, even me.

            Now give the laptop back to mommy, you’ve got school tomorrow and you should hit the hay.

      • nepanyrush

        In Iowa, Cain at 26, Romney at 18, Gingrich 12, Bachmann 11, Paul 10, and Perry 6.

        In NH, Romney at 39, Cain 24, Paul 11, Gingrich and Bachmann at 11, Paul 10 and Perry at just 2.

        In SC, Cain at 32, Romney 16, and Perry at 12.

        There are indications that Perry’s massive collapse has his anti-Romney support going to Cain. If Cain gets a good team in place, he could be a major factor.

        Perry, on the other hand, is losing all credibility not just with his debate performance and whining (“Romney has been at this for 6 years, I have been at this for only 8 weeks), but now his wife’s whining about his lack of support being because he is a strong Christian.

        I supported Perry early on until he got demolished in the debates. If he miraculous becomes a good debater, then I could get back on his bandwagon. But I really want someone who can stand up to Obama’s lies and strawmen. Romney, Cain, and Gingrich are the only three that I see able to do that.

        http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/cain-Iowa-leads-poll/2011/10/17/id/414786

        • dio55

          and you think ron paul supporters are fanitcal …oy

          • thirstyboots

            Sometimes it gets a little creepy. Well, a lot. The man is still just another politician (and not even a particularly talented one), calm down already.

          • paladin1

            1) 3 term governor of second largest state in union,
            2) supported and signed bills including abortion ultrasound requirement, photo voter ID, state border security enhancement @ $400,000,000,
            3) supports and defends the Second and Tenth Amendments, and attacks Obama publicly for his assaults on the same.

            Romney has a record:

            1) One term governor of a small blue state with no conservative credentials,
            2) supported and passed Romneycare and still supports it today,
            3) supported the bailouts of corporations instead of lettting the sick ones fail.
            4) Can’t break 30% innational approval.

            Cain has a record:

            1) Sat on the Federal Reserve Board in Kansas City,
            2) Supported TARP and the bailouts, but says he didn’t like how it was implemented?!,
            3) proposed a national sales tax in his economic plan; a new taxing avenue for the Federal government not before used.
            4) and is considering changing it already since the uproar it created took effect, particularly when people with states that have a substantial sales tax looked at their new tax burden,
            5) the Cain electric fence on the border; a joke even before he meant it to be.

            Fanatical….maybe; happy to say I told you so after the convention…you bet! Us fanatical Perry supporters will wave at you guys from the winner’s circle!

    • lifedontwasteit

      17 reason I cannot support Cain.https://www.facebook.com/notes/leslie-…
      This guy has flipped flopped on so many issues or has no stand at all… way too politically immature to be President. We already have that…

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    the MSM has been so supportive, setting-him-up for the KILL

    note also his rather substantial self-admitted defects regarding foreign policy

    Commentary – Contentions

    Jonathan S. Tobin | @tobincommentary
    10.16.2011 – 1:56 PM

    Herman Cain Still Proudly Ignorant on Foreign Policy

    I?ve taken Herman Cain to task in the past for his appalling ignorance of foreign policy issues. He promised to brush up on these matters, but it appears that one of his greatest strengths ? his unflappability and imperviousness to criticism ? can also be a great weakness. As his appearance on ?Meet the Press? this morning showed, rather than study up to fix an embarrassing shortcoming, the Godfather Pizza executive hasn?t done much to correct his lack of knowledge about war and peace issues which are, after all, a president?s first responsibility.

    When pressed for answers today on Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq, the best Cain could do was to repeat his mantra that he would consult experts and then figure it out. Which is to say, he knows he hasn?t a clue but hopes no one will care. Durng the program, Cain admitted he had no familiarity with the neoconservative movement. While being a subscriber to COMMENTARY isn?t a requirement for the presidency, that someone running for that office has not even heard the term suggests Cain is not only bereft of foreign policy experience, he apparently has never even read much about it.

    As COMMENTARY readers know, neoconservatism has a long and honorable history as the movement that helped mobilize the country to oppose d?tente and the Soviet Union as well as having played a key role in critiquing the failures of the welfare state. During the Bush administration, leftists used the word as an epithet seeking to demonize those who believed not only in the need to fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but also in the whole idea of promoting democracy abroad. After all that, it truly says something about a public figure who would admit to never having heard the word or knowing what it means.

    Of course, neoconservatism isn?t the only term Cain hasn?t heard of. He was similarly stumped when asked about the Palestinian right of return. He also has said Iran?s imminent drive for nuclear weapons could be stopped by American energy independence that could take decades to achieve.

    The point about Cain?s ignorance is not just that it?s noteworthy, not to mention faintly ridiculous, to have a person running for president for whom the debates and the ideas behind the great struggles of our time are a mystery. It is that it is impossible to trust such a person to do the right thing if elected. Cain?s mind is clearly a blank slate when it comes to having the knowledge to make the life and death decisions one faces as president. We would have to trust providence that the experts he listened to would correct his ignorance.

    As we have seen on the campaign trail, Cain?s self-confidence is impregnable. That?s a good quality if it reinforces one?s adherence to principle. But when it allows a person to treat a major hole in one?s knowledge base as an unimportant detail, it is a terrible, disqualifying fault.

    • Common_Cents

      Like Obama knows everything. And the media curiously never plays gotcha with Obama.

      An honest man like Cain comes along and people jump on him. What President knows everything and every name of every leader? None. They all get briefed by advisors. Only the biased media will jump on a guy like Cain.

      America better watch out what we wish for, or we are going to get it. Another slick polished politician that stands for nothing and tells us everything.

      • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

        …a philly-based RINO, praise Cain.

        example: “so what if he doesn’t know who an ‘neocon’ is; most americans don’t, either”

        he predicts he won’t be a “flash” like … perry; he’ll hang-around.

        oh that they WISH he would displace perry for the long-term….

        • bobguzzardi

          as my colleague, dr. bob, who was with me in Charleston, for Gov. Perry’s announcement, points out, the Libs love Cain. If the Libs like someone, we don’t.

          Rick Perry is The Guy

          • tyman

            I don’t just want someone to mop the floor with Obama during debates. I want someone with the conservative fortitude to dismantle what he’s done to this country.

            It’s a pity that folks don’t notice there is a difference.

            I have no doubt that Perry could take Obama down in a debate. Obama a good debater? Are you kidding? He can’t string a sentence together without about a dozen “uh”s.

            The only reason he looked good in ’08 is McCain was really that bad.

            I’m really starting to question the polls that show Cain so far ahead. I know he has momentum, but something doesn’t seem quite right.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    I mean factually.

    1) You ignore Cain’s own words:

    “The third reason the national retail sales tax on top of all the taxes we already pay is a bad idea”

    NOTE what he says.

    “on top of all the taxes we already pay”

    999 eliminates a good chunk of those taxes.

    2) You say “What struck me about the plan was the extremely non-conservative nature of the plan (for the past 30 years conservatives have opposed new taxes”

    People aren’t against NEW taxes, we’re against ADDITIONAL taxes.

    The Fair Tax has a huge conservative following and the part of Cain’s 999 that you object to is a key part of the Fair Tax.

    So it’s pretty disengenius to say that there aren’t conservatives in favor of a National Sales Tax.

    Semi-respectfully,

    Change Jar Conservative
    Sitting in the pumpkin patch waiting for Mitch Daniels to declare.

    • streiff

      Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

      9-9-9 is not Fair Tax. Don’t pretend that it is.

      9-9-9 does propose an “additional tax” so you’re right and you should be opposed.

      • gnorc

        Currently, we have more than three taxes sapping people (Income, Excise, Corporate, SSI, Medicare, Capital Gains, etc., etc.), so it isn’t a sales tax on top of current tax code.

        Second, 9-9-9 is a transition step to the Fair Tax, as you cannot go right from the current code (with 22% hidden tax in sales, more like a VAT than what Cain is proposing) to the Fair Tax (with a 23% visible tax). That would produce a time with products having both (resulting in a short-term ~50% combined tax: 1.22 * 1.23)

        • streiff

          none of that has any impact on any of Cain’s three objections to the national sales tax from a mere 11 months ago.

          Why is it easier to completely reform the tax code twice in presumably one administration than only once?

          • gnorc

            It is NOT a VAT. (The current code is closer to a VAT than 9-9-9)
            It is NOT a sales tax ON TOP OF the current tax code, it is three simple, transparent taxes to replace the 6+ complex, opaque taxes we currently have.

            The Fair Tax is a great system to work towards, but you cannot just go from the current code to the Fair Tax without a huge spike, albeit temporary, in the cost of goods and services. There NEEDS to be one or more transition phases. 9-9-9 is just such a transition phase.

          • streiff

            1. Neither I nor Cain version November 2010 were talking about VAT. In both cases we have been clear we are talking about a national sales tax.

            2. 9-9-9 is a national sales tax placed on top/under/around/below/beside/in front of our current tax code. We can argue cardinal positions until the cow’s come home.

            You can claim it is simple, transparent, etc. but your proof for that is no deeper than what you can find on Cain’s campaign website.

            You are proposing two huge rewrites of the tax code. Tactically, that is a dumb idea for just about every reason from creating business uncertainty to the unlikelihood that you can maintain a political coalition.

          • gnorc

            9-9-9 gets rid of the current tax code. Adding a tax to the current tax code ends with (Current number of Taxes) + 1. That is not what 9-9-9 does. It replaces the current code with 3 taxes.

            (Federal Income tax + various excise taxes + SSI tax + Medicare tax + corporate tax + estate tax + …) + 1 > 3. Mathematically, your argument falls apart.

            I remember a quote that went something like that there are simple answer; just not easy ones. 9-9-9 is vastly superior to the current tax code so that even if it the Fair Tax and repeal of the 16th amendment takes a long time to do, we still come out ahead, Mathematically speaking.

          • streiff

            but it still doesn’t answer the subject of this post.

            9-9-9 includes a national sales tax on top of a personal income tax and a corporate income tax with no way to curb the growth of any of the three.

            Cain realized that weakness last year. Other than by assuming away the existence of Congress and the possibility that Cain will leave office someday there is no way you can keep the three taxes at 9%.

            So why don’t you try addressing the issue. Why is the creation of a brand new federal tax, where none now exists, a good idea? What mechanism guarantees it will not become exactly like the British VAT and the income tax?

          • gnorc

            to curb the growth of the more than half dozen taxes we have now! In fact, it is FAR EASIER to raise people’s taxes by manipulating the loopholes in the current system to raise people’s taxes under the guise of “targeted tax cuts.”

            Think about this. If it was so easy to raise marginal rates, then they would have done so in 2009. The left wanted to, on the evil “THEM,” but couldn’t, even with full control of the legislative process in Democratic hands.

            Finally, the VAT is a hidden tax placed on each stage of production (unless the stage happens in another country). The national sales tax is a visible tax only applied upon sale of new products (so, it taxes both imports, which are barely taxed at all, and domestically produced products equally). The current system is more closely aligned with a VAT in function than a sales tax. In fact, the 9% business tax is the part that I am not too keen on (as it is a hidden tax on consumers and a tax of the evil “THEM” like the current tax system has).

            As for the topic of the post, 9-9-9 is neither a VAT nor a new tax added to the current system. In fact, it is Mathematically impossible that it is a new tax added to the current system, as I shoed in a simple arithmetic inequality (I’m a Math and Computer nerd, so I often think in terms of Mathematics and boolean logic).

          • streiff

            I’d suggest you find a new line of work.

            “New” is not a “boolean” concept. It is English. It means, um, “new.”

            By your logic, when I visit your mom, I’m not “new” even though it is my first time because she’s cut her client list down from 657 to 431 before I started. That is silly. I am new despite her cutting her hooking down by a third. That’s silly.

            New means new. Just because some taxes are allegedly going to end doesn’t keep a national sales tax from being new because it doesn’t exist today. Ergo, the newness.

            btw, “math and computer nerd” is not the same as “gamer trash.”

          • powertothepeople

            loved it Streiff, loved it.

          • gnorc

            That’s the key. It is not a new tax in addition to the current system, but an entirely new system.

            Oh, and the boolean logic referred to my use of the “>” symbol, which, in the case of my post, resolves to “TRUE” (or “YES” in some languages).

            However, since your argument has devolved into insults, and rather pathetic ones at that (really?! A “your mom is a prostitute” insult?!), I take that as a win on the merits, Mathematical, logical, and otherwise.

          • papabear

            Well done!

            Even better, you didn’t take the bait (you need to be careful – don’t want to get the ban hammer waved at you).

          • Change Jar Conservative

            1) No one said that the sales tax portion of 999 wasn’t NEW.

            2) What we’re saying and that you keep ignoring is that it’s not ‘on top of the current tax code” which is what Herman said.

            It guts the current tax code.

            So you ARE taking his words out of context.

          • dirlie

            So if you disagree on this board you can go to the your mom is a prostitute theme. Wow, just wow. Way to make your point there….what part of “be respectful” is this?

          • gekster

            In computer parlance, I am hooking quite often.
            People come to me for hooking.
            I charge $25 minimum, and get up to $200.

            “In computer programming, the term hooking covers a range of techniques used to alter or augment the behavior of an operating system, of applications, or of other software components by intercepting function calls or messages or events passed between software components. Code that handles such intercepted function calls, events or messages is called a “hook”.”

            The term you assigned to the word is yours.
            He didn’t say turning tricks.

          • dirlie

            you just called the dude’s mom a computer geek? That may be worse than being a pro.

          • gekster

            as I is one. ;)
            And as I get paid most of the time for doing it, I am a pro.

  • Jim Tomasik

    In that piece, he was talking about a VAT on top of the current income tax. That is what he is kind of offering up with his 999 plan and I agree with you in so much as that is concerned.

    But your He has always been supportive of the FairTax which is a NST just as he is in this very article you are making a such big deal about says that.

    “The third reason the national retail sales tax on top of all the taxes we already pay is a bad idea, is that there is already proposed legislation that replaces all of the federal taxes we pay. It replaces all current revenue. It supercharges our national economic growth, and puts the power of taxation back into the hands of the people who spend their money.

    It?s called the Fair Tax. It?s as easy to understand as ABC!”

    This statement by you is just plain false.

    “Today I found out that Herman Cain agrees with me. A national retail tax is a really bad idea.”
    • streiff

      is a sales tax on top of the current income tax.

      and he says

      Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

      So your point is that “really bad” isn’t comparable to “the worst”. Interesting. English as a second language, I presume.

      • Jim Tomasik

        and everyone who reads this can plainly see it.

        • streiff

          last November a national sales tax was a bad idea for all the reasons I’ve stated in three of my posts and several belonging to other people. He is right.

          Now as a candidate he proposes creating a brand new tax and slapping it on top of a personal and corporate income tax,.

          • Jim Tomasik

            ..,

          • streiff

            the way you recommended the diary that has him opposing a national sales tax and then slavishly jumped on the 9-9-9 bandwagon sort of makes you look like a tool.

          • Jim Tomasik

            I have said over and over again on this very site and elsewhere that I don’t like Cain’s 999 plan at all. I will oppose it if he becomes President. I wish he would just drop 999 and support FairTax.

            If Romney becomes the nominee, you will vote for him right? That is the same thing I am doing now with the only candidate who will do anything about taking steps to get us away from the income tax. He is the only choice at this time.

          • streiff

            I don’t have the time to post links to your various comments and this is inevitably going to end with you being banned. So have fun in enjoying your hard won status as a shill.

          • Jim Tomasik

          • bobguzzardi

            If Herman Cain wanted to promote the Fair Tax, he could have said that.

            He did not. streif is correct. Not only is Herman Cain contradicting himself, this is a bad idea.

            Herman Cain is right that US has a spending problem. What does he plan to do about that?

          • streiff

            I have to point out that Cain does say that after 9-9-9 the next step is to implement Fair Tax. I think that two step approach is a recipe for failure, even assuming 9-9-9 or Fair Tax are good ideas.

            But to the point the man has changed his opinion in a huge way and done it in less than a year. No one cut Mitt Romney when he was accused of flip flopping why is the standard lower for Cain?

  • SKully

    You have this paragraph, from the diary:

    “A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country.”

    He is not proposing a national tax ON TOP OF everything else.

    He also states support for the Fair Tax further in his diary.

    I respect your disagreement with Cain’s 9-9-9 plan and there is certainly a need for discussion on it. What I think is disingenuous is implying he is flip-flopping, when reading the whole diary does not indicate that he has flipped at all.

    For the record – I have not decided yet who I am going to support. Cain is certainly in my list.

    • streiff

      9=9-9 is a national sales tax on top of a personal and corporate income tax.

      Fair Tax is not what we’re discussing.

      And yes, he is flip-flopping in a style that would embarrass even Mitt Romney.

      • bobguzzardi

        Herman Cain is talking about 9-9-9 not the Fair Tax.

        If Herman Cain wanted to propose a Fair Tax, he would have said “I propose the Fair Tax.”. Herman Cain is not stupid or inarticulate. Herman Cain said what he meant and said what he meant and it was not the Fair Tax.

        streiff is right.

        FYI I am shilling for Rick Perry

        • msjallen

          body

          http://video.foxnews.com/v/1223435737001/herman-cain-defends-999-plan/?playlist_id=86858

      • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

        Cain was OBVIOUSLY talking about the proposal floating around the the Dems to add a sales tax ON TOP of what was going on. He made that abundandtly clear.
        I don’t know HOW MANY times streiff can hear this; look at all the taxes that get removed from 9-9-9, look at how income taxes and corporate taxes get lowered. Then, read on how the 9% portion on the sales tax replaces the embedded taxes of around 23% of goods you buy retail. If 9 < 23, how can you call this an added tax? Be honest now.
        9 is lower than 23. Always has been, always will be. Doesn't matter if you use a calculator, abacus, or draw it out on an etch a sketch.

      • wiredaces80

        Streiff, do you think those are the only 3 taxes? Why do you selectively choose to ignore the taxes 9-9-9 abolishes?

        If you add 1 revenue stream, but then take away more than 1 revenue stream, does that result in fewer or more revenue streams? Do you not count capital gains as a revenue stream, for example?

        • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

          define ‘personal income’, ‘business income’, and ‘national sales tax’….

          What did you eliminate? What part of “revenue neutral” don’t you understand?

          Raise the cost of consumption… what happens? “It get’s rid of ‘hidden taxes’ that you’re already paying…” What hidden taxes are you referring to?

  • carolynr

    Was on all the blogs…this is only going to benefit people who earn a lot more money than me or corporations. This would put me in the poor house…Good luck in FL and NV with this.

    I pay, fed income tax, state income tax and states sales tax…I live in the same state as Herman Cain…What in the world has gone through his head…people in GA don’t earn that much or they are retired…we’d be on Welfare after it ate up our savings.

    Imagine buying a car…wow…state sales tax, state income tax and his 9% tax….shoot…I guess it’s time for a bicycle…the banana republic is coming.

  • http://thestrategery.com keithcottingham

    that he addresses your confusion in the last two paragraphs of the quote you posted. The lynchpin for 9-9-9 to work is repeal of the current tax code — something Cain hasn’t been shy about. You can debate the likelihood as to whether such a sea change could occur, but given that caveat, Cain isn’t exactly flip-flopping, as you suggest.

    • streiff

      He proposes 9=9=9 as a way to set up Fair Tax. He does not propose repealing the current tax code as “the linchpin” to make 9-9-9 work.

      • http://thestrategery.com keithcottingham

        Fair Tax advocates plainly state that repeal of the 16th Amendment is a prerequisite for it to be implemented. But that aside, I’ve watched each debate and, every time Cain describes his 9-9-9 plan, he begins by qualifying it with replacing the current tax code. It’s possible that his website needs an editorial update for clarity.

        As for 9-9-9 itself, I have sincere doubts it could be established as is. However, based on Cain’s own words (then and now), I don’t see any flip-flopping whatsoever.

        • http://thestrategery.com keithcottingham

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfHSxhyY6Jc

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9LFwX7YfKg

        • streiff

          1. on his website he does not mention any repeal of the 16th Amendment under 9-9-9.

          2. Replacing the current tax code does not imply scrapping the income tax.

          3. One of the “9″s in 9-9-9 is a national sales tax.

          4. Last November the national sales tax was an unmitigated bad idea. Now it is a good idea.

          • http://thestrategery.com keithcottingham

            his website could be updated for clarity. But in each debate, he’s been overtly clear that 9-9-9 begins with throwing out the current tax code. The vids I posted make that indisuptable.

            2) The income tax is part of the current tax code. Scrap it and you scrap the income tax. There’s not a CPA alive who doesn’t see that implication.

            3) Yep. Don’t think I disputed that.

            4) Either you’re misquoting or misreading. From your quotation of Cain: “A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have…” (3rd paragraph) and “The third reason the national retail sales tax on top of all the taxes we already pay…” (4th paragraph).

            On. Top. Of. All. The. Taxes. We. Pay.

            If we can’t agree on the meaning of that, I don’t really have anything else to say.

            Perhaps restated: A sucks. B is better. A + B won’t work, so let’s repeal A and implement B. He’s been consistent.

          • streiff

            the website is clear and you don’t like what it says. So you have to say the website isn’t clear and his verbal explanations are what he means.

            I can’t argue your interpretation of what the man said, so yeah, we have nothing to talk about.

          • http://thestrategery.com keithcottingham

            Actually, the fact that you can’t acknowledge the quotes that you yourself included speaks volumes. I’ve no time to argue the sky’s blueness and you don’t seem interested in any reasonable discussion on the merits of your argument. Back to lurking.

  • tailfins1959

    If the election were held today, I reluctantly would vote for Romney. However Cain and Perry are worth watching. Let’s hope one or both polish their operation. None of the declared GOP candidates are a non-starter for me. We can see what expecting a candidate that can “lower the oceans” gets us.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Disclaimer: I am not in the tank for Rick Perry.

    • bobguzzardi

      Rick Perry is The Guy and he can win Pennsylvania.

      There are no saints in Washington and Rick Perry won’t be the first. We will elect someone like us and Rick Perry, like Sarah Palin, is like us.

      My prediction is that both Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh, at key moment, will come out and endorse Rick Perry as will Mark Levin.

      • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

        note Guzzardi’s observation that perry doesn’t pander…
        http://thelibertyblog.org/2011/10/12/rick-perry-ethanol-subsidies-and-mandates-iowa-gov-press-release/
        …and note his overall analysis…
        http://www.saveardmorecoalition.org/node/5848/rick-perry-hes-guy
        …which has withstood loco-regional bloggers.

        Add DeMint and The Donald to the list of potential endorsers….

      • Change Jar Conservative

        If Perry shows some skills and actually has an economic plan (he refers to his oil stuff as his jobs plan not his economic plan) then I might go there.

        Right now, it might be CAIN by default to defeat Romney.

  • california_red

    VAT is collected at each stage of the manufacturing process. Sales tax collected once.

    And while the mechanism to collect the 9% sales tax might be useful to bootstrap into a VAT, it is not the same. We woiuld need to fight the pressure to add new taxes or raise current taxes just liek we do now.

    And while I oppose a VAT added to our current laundry list of taxes, the Cain plan is a toatal tax overhaul.

    • streiff

      no one is discussing a VAT… but thanks for telling us what it is.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Subtitle: If sands are shifting, circumstances are changing.

  • davidpw

    “Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for
    those living and/or working in the zone”

    This should also be a concern.

    http://www.hermancain.com/images/economicgrowth.pdf

    • streiff

      you can’t use his words. He speaks in parables.

  • C_Low

    http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

    “Phase 2 ? The Fair Tax

    Amidst a backdrop of the economic renewal created by the 9-9-9 Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.

    Ultimately replaces individual and corporate income taxes
    Ends the IRS as we know it and repeals the 16th Amendment”

    Off Cains campaign site. He directly targets his 999 as a stepping stone transition plan to get to the Fair Tax and read that last line again Streiff ENDS THE IRS AS WE KNOW IT AND REPEALS THE 16TH AMENDMENT.

    It is hard to sell a 9% sales tax and during the transition when business who save on the embedded taxes will have room to lower prices to out compete (adjust to new market variables) and during that time the shock on the consumers will not be the 20+% the Fair Tax would be during that adjustment..

    Good stepping stone to work the bugs prior to a full shift and help ease the fears of the people.

    I have a feeling when the politicians have to explain a tax increase not as “cutting loop holes for millionairess and jet owners” but as we are going to add x% to everyone’s sales tax or flat tax it will not go over so easy.

    Cain answers the doubters at this site point by point for who wish to see from the horses mouth rather than others opinions.

    http://www.northstarwriters.com/2011/10/16/9-responses-to-9-false-attacks-on-the-9-9-9-plan/

    We need real CHANGE and drastic actions to bring the US ship about and back on course. More of the same slowed creeping socialism that we have had for the last 40+ yrs and Romney will continue is the worst we could do. Romney will kill our rock ribs we got in the congress in the last election by forcing them to sell out (for the party) and break the conservative bases moral taking us back to either 06-08 or worse a full fracture into a 3rd party.

    Either way we don’t have the time left to play the lesser evil game. Our nation is at the precipice and if real actions are not taken within the next 10yrs we are doomed.

    • streiff

      this still doesn’t explain why the national sales tax criticized by Cain last year is different from the national sales tax proposed by Cain this year.

      No one is discussing Fair Tax and imposing 9-9-9 to get to Fair Tax doesn’t make any sense whatsoever because it leaves you with a national sales tax AND the IRS AND the income tax with no way to repeal the 16th in sight.

      As so many people have said, we have a spending problem not a revenue problem. Why is giving the government a new revenue stream a good idea?

    • windwaker24

      Where does this “ending the IRS” come from? If the federal government is collecting revenue within the U.S., how do you get rid of the INTERNAL REVENUE Service? Who makes sure people are in compliance with the law (FairTax, Flat Tax, etc.) and not hiding the money or screwing people over?

  • plwinteregg

    Really.

    Amazing streiff, I’d expect this type of hack writing from the MSM liberals, but here on Redstate?

    If you actually read what Cain discussed back in November 2010 was a Dem/Lib proposal to ADD a VAT to our long list of taxes.

    Cain is proposing a National Sales Tax (actually a bit of a different animal than a VAT) as part of a reform to REPLACE our current monstrous system with something far simpler.

    And how convenient for you to leave out the last line of the quote:

    “The third reason the national retail sales tax on top of all the taxes we already pay is a bad idea, is that there is already proposed legislation that replaces all of the federal taxes we pay. It’s called the fair tax, says Cain.”

    Last time I checked, the Fair Tax Plan is a national sales tax.

    Streiff, you should be ashamed of yourself. If you disagree on principle, then do so on the facts and lets have an open and honest discussion. But to stoop to this level of dishonest writing is really beneath what I expect from Redstate.

    • jrhode2873

      Very well said. This is shameful.

    • streiff

      1. Cain is not talking about a VAT in the November story. He clearly says national sales tax. Read the article.

      2. Yes, a national sales tax is different than a VAT which is why we are discussing a national sales tax that Cain said was bad in November but is pushing to implement today.

      3. Actually, that would be Fair Tax which is not what we are discussing here.

      4. Fair Tax is a national sales tax. But it is predicated on the income tax being eliminated concurrent with implementation. Cain is proposing a sales tax + a personal income tax + a corporate income tax. Quite different things. This will be a shock to you, but not everyone thinks Fair Tax is a good idea.

      5. I have made it clear from the beginning that I disagree with this silliness on principle and practicality. I provided the links… but apparently you didn’t read them.

      6. Calling people leftists and RINOs is what idiots do when they have no response. Don’t do it again. You call me names at your own risk. This one is on me. Next one, not so much.

      • plwinteregg

        1. Cain is talking about a VAT–that is in the article, and is the context of the discussion at that time. Because of the similarities to a sales tax (both are ostensibly based on consumption), the debate at that time often interchanged the two, as was done here in this article.

        2. Again, you are selectively using quotes out of context to painfully construe a point. If you don’t like a national sales tax, fine. But don’t go through such contortions to do so.

        3. Actually, the Fair Tax is part of the discussion. If you were truly familiar with Cain’s plan, the 9-9-9 is actually one of several steps to take us to the Fair Tax.

        4. Yes the Fair Tax is a national sales tax, but as mentioned above, the 9-9-9 is meant to be transitional. And yes, anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that not everyone like a national sales tax–otherwise we’d have one by now.

        5. The difficulty with this debate is that so much is based on partial truths and distortions. Repeating them doesn’t make them true. And there are a number of ‘experts’ lining up behind this plan, as well. But then, you conveniently left those references out.

        6. I never called you any names, but identified your tactic for what it was: shameful. Seems you have awfully thin skin on this one.

        If we expect as conservatives to have healthy, honest debates, then we cannot be stooping to the same cheap tactics to prove a point. I, too, have some questions about 9-9-9, but I don’t find your effort here useful to the discussion. If we expect to win the debate (and votes) in 2012, how can we do so if we butcher each other, and then hand over to the libs the chopped meat ready for consumption?

      • SKully

        Cain IS talking about a VAT. Go read his Redstate post again, and look at the BIG BOLD LETTERS at the top. “Don’t be VAT stupid”. Then read the 4th paragraph:

        “The worst idea is a proposed national sales tax, which is a disguised VAT (value added tax) on top of everything we already pay in federal taxes.”

        Cain wrote this entry in response to Obama’s Debt Commission and the Bipartisan Policy Center’s Debt Reduction Task Force. He was commenting on an idea they floated.

        The idea he was commenting on was (I’m assuming, because the link no longer leads to the article) what the two groups were calling a national sales tax but Cain clearly says it is a VAT tax ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE.

        Your point #1 is nullified by simple reading of Cain’s own words. That in turn nullifies your point #2.

        Thoughtful discussion of #3 and #4 would be a much better use of Redstate front page, instead of pointing the guns at our own.

    • center77

      you response to streiff is right out of the liberal play book. Cains plan is not q good idea, Cain knew that, but the guy knows how to market something. Vain just denies facts when challenged on his hope that businesses pass on their tax breaks. If the man was so real, he would come out and tell the truth. When streiff points out that Cain once opposed a national sales tax and did not trust the government to keep the taxes in place whwre first passed, you call it a hatchet job. How can you deny facts when presented in your own candidates words. In 2008 liberals allowed the chosen one to skate his way to being president without calling him on the inconsistent views and large negatives, but now many conservative are willing to support their own version. Cains plan depends on things out of his control, and what streiff has pointed out is that not only did Cain fall against this type of thinking, so did most conservatives. Now my other issue with Vain is his willingness to say anything to get attention. If any other candidate says what he has, they would be done, how is it ok for Cain to use it. It’s dangerous for the movement, and perpetuates the negative stereotype that conservatives are not sympathetic to the have boys. The truth is, conservative are better prepared to help the poor, but not when we open up a heavy stream the government can use to pull more from the economy. Cain has no record, so its his words we have to judge. You misplaced anger is not cool in light of the seriousness of the situation.

  • jrhode2873

    Everybody else has already done a pretty good job of pointing out your intellectual dishonesty and disingenuous about Cain and 999. So now your are resorting to accusing Cain of flip-flopping as a way to turn people against the plan? Still have yet to read an honest fair full evaluation from you about the plan as a whole just more nonsense and demagoguery.

    • streiff

      spelled out the flaws of this juvenile scheme.

      http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/280306/bold-brash-and-wrong-editors
      http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/dean-clancy/herman-cains-999-plan-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugl

      But I understand why reading all this is uncomfortable, too. My 6 year old had the same tone when she found out about the tooth fairy.

      • jrhode2873

        So is Club for Growth being juvenile in supporting it? Is Larry Kudlow being juvenile in supporting it? Is Art Laffer being juvenile in supporting it?

        National Review? Seriously? We all know NR is a bunch of establish Republicans who are in the tank for Romney. They endorsed him last time and they will endorse him again. Most of us could care less what they have to say about Cain.

        So Mitt is your guy huh? LOL! What a great champion of conservative principles Mitt Romney is. If he is your guy, it all makes sense now.

        • Aaron Gardner

          Also, look up “appeal to authority”. We call those logical fallacies.

          • jrhode2873

            Well, he did include a link about Romney’s jobs plan in another post. That doesn’t mean I’m right but it doesn’t mean I’m idiotic either. As a matter of fact, I’m not going to legitimize any more of your posts until you learn to debate people without name calling.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Look at the archives from 2008 for streiff, he clearly is not a Romney supporter.

            And fyi, I don’t need you to “legitimize” any more of my posts, I am a contributor to the front page of RedState, Erick has already legitimized me and there isn’t really a thing you can do about it.

          • jrhode2873

            But you did call me a name the other day in another post and you have a tendency to be insulting.

            Lucky for you, I’m not gonna read any of more of your “front page” posts or respond to any more of your comments. Cheerio…

    • center77

      to have my candidate beat up, but taking it out on the messager is lame. Cain 999 plan is a joke, and all streiff is pointing out is that Cain once thought it was as well. You can disagree with the premise, but ignoring facts is not going to work. Reality is not subjective, you cannot change facts. now on to the comment above that ignores the facts in the post.

  • C_Low

    http://www.hermancain.com/the-issues

    Spending
    “Nothing should be off the table. Every federal agency, every government program and expenditure must be reviewed and revised with a keen eye and a red pen. Leaders should be willing to shrink budgets by target percentages, and those charged with implementing those changes must be held accountable.”

    Energy
    “Because they have perpetuated such a myth, liberals have forced excessive environmental regulations that have stifled our domestic energy production, and instead, forced American consumers to rely far too heavily upon foreign oil. In many cases, this oil comes from Middle Eastern countries, some of whom are not friendly to the U.S., who end up dictating the prices of our energy consumption. In return, Americans have seen no improvements in our environment or in the cleanliness of our air. We must expand our domestic energy resources by loosening government?s grip responsibly.”
    ohhh and also cut the subsidies to green energy and ethanol, let the free market choose the winners/losers not the gov. Amen to that

    Unleash Economic Growth
    “The role of the federal government should be to encourage economic growth by ensuring conditions that will allow businesses to thrive, not just survive. That means less legislation, less regulation, lower taxes and business-friendly policies.

    The federal government should not be in the business of picking and choosing industries they support financially”
    read in whole its good

    Health Care
    “The majority of Americans agree: it?s time to repeal and replace Obamacare with patient-centered, free market reforms. It?s time to institute legitimate tort reforms that let doctors practice medicine without fear of frivolous lawsuits. Loser pay laws would be a great start! That is, require those who lose frivolous lawsuits to pay the legal expenses of those found not guilty.”

    Entitlements
    “The federal government has imposed expensive and often counter-productive social and welfare programs on the states and the people. It is time to admit the mistakes, and get the federal government out of the way. This will allow states, cities, churches, charities and businesses to offer a helping hand instead of a handout where they live. People closest to the problems are the best ones to solve the problems effectively.”
    Back to the basics that worked built strong families communities and people.

    Regulation
    “Eliminating the burdens of cumbersome federal regulations would provide an immediate boost for our weakened economy. It would signal to businesses and investors that the federal government intends to get out of the business of over regulating. Where regulations are required the states will do their job. Consumers and investors do not need nanny-state federal regulations to save them from themselves.”

    Education
    “Another way we can put kids first is to offer school choice as a real option for educational competition. This means expanding school vouchers and charter schools. Such measures have proven time and time again to best serve the students, many of whom do not have the economic means of attending better schools”
    “Education is the key to unlocking a prosperous future. At the heart of education should always be the students. Unfortunately, education has become weighed down with administration that has shifted the focus from educating students to maintaining an excessive level of bureaucracy through expanded unionization and regulation. It?s time to unbundle education from the federal government down to the local level.”

    Faith & Family
    “America?s moral foundation does not need to be rewritten. It needs to be respected and taught to our children and grandchildren. It is the basis for our concept of freedom. As former President Ronald Reagan reminded us many years ago:

    ?Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn?t pass it on to our children in the blood stream. It must be fought for and protected and handed on for them to do the same. Or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and grandchildren what is used to be like in the United States when men were free.?
    We are free because ?In God Is Our Trust.?”

    The non quoted sections are my additions.

    I am not a flag waiving Cain supporter but I have heard him on the radio many times over the years and while sometimes I disagree it is not the norm, and never heard a deal breaker from him. I have seen Romeny type repubs cycle after cycle and voted lesser evil time/again. It has only gotten worse and not once in my lifetime do I recall a roll back of the socialist Democrat agenda. We have reached the breaking point in my opinion ole Uncle Sam is on his death bed diseased from the inside out weighted down with chains of needles regulation. We need real leadership not more of the same.

    WE NEED TO TAKE SOME REAL ACTION EVEN IF IT INVOLVES SOME RISK, TO SAVE OUR NATION AS WE KNOW IT.

    Lets pick the best available option rather than continue the norm of least worst option.

    • streiff

      really.

      This is what a “plan” looks like http://www.mittromney.com/jobs

      • izoneguy
        • center77

          this is only the first phase. It does talk a little about taxes, but the truth of the matter is it is serious. Perry is bar none the best candidate because of record alone. I would rather have someone who I know will govern conservative than someone who I just do not know what they will do.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          I don’t. He is aware that there are other industries….right?

          • acat

            Costs go up across the board if the energy sector is lagging.
            Investment dries up when energy costs rise.

            I don’t think it’ll matter a whole lot if we don’t get something resembling predictability back into the tax code, but “fixing” the energy industry is a good way to goose just about every industry by proxy.

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Keeping them wanting isn’t a winning political campaign strategy, imo.

    • Scope

      that you have posted that Perry has not also supported. The difference is that Perry actually governed a large state successfully, for more than a decade, which provides us with the record of success that Cain just does not have. Cain will not be elected mostly because the 2012 election is much to important to the country than to give the keys to a neophyte.

  • C_Low

    http://www.mittromney.com/issues

    Jobs
    http://www.mittromney.com/blogs/mitts-view/2011/09/believe-america-day-one-job-one

    Lots of happy talk no real hard changes except orders to go back to pre “O” status and off course this is only the parts that “unduly burden”. Yeahhh heard it before hollow talk.

    Spending
    “Mitt Romney will bring fiscal restraint to Washington by placing a hard cap on federal spending to force our government to live within its means and put an end to deficit spending.”
    wow is he Dole reincarnate Bod Dole I mean Mitt Romney will, ugh (I know it was not actually written by Romney just a loley aid for him which is worse) but hmm “hard cap” is/means what? Why not just say “Balanced Budget requirement” ohh because that would mean no deficit spending and real cuts wouldn’t it? More of the same.

    Entitlements
    Happy Talk warm fuzzy promises that have no basis in reality. Ohh more of the same no real plan just talk.

    Health Care
    “We can empower states to expand health care access to low-income Americans by block-granting funds for Medicaid and the uninsured. Mitt Romney?s reforms also offer the states resources to help the chronically ill, to improve their access to care, and to improve the functioning of insurance markets for others.”
    Happy talk with no hard ideas and stuff like that which reads as MORE gov spending, I guess Romney’s plan is Obama Romney Care funded by the Fed with block grants etc.. run by and controlled by the States? What huh
    Tax Reform
    “Mitt Romney will expand the tax deduction to also include those who buy their own health insurance.”
    Nice more loop holes for abuse. Gotta make that huge needless industry that exits solely because to understand and take advantage of the US tax system requires the effort of a full time job.
    “Mitt Romney will cap non-economic damages in medical malpractice litigation. He also believes in providing innovation grants to states for additional medical liability reforms, such as alternative dispute resolution or health care courts.”
    Nice beginning but then he added the “alternative dispute resolution” aka more regulation, more confusion, more expense i.e. more non-binding required mediation and $400 and hour court mandated mediators that are attorneys. one hand feeds the other crap

    Yeah that sounds like a plan for nothing but MORE OF THE SAME. Slow creep.

    • center77

      do anything he says. the first time the media goes after him, he will change and say its the will of the people. no Obama light.

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    With their “American Voices” man-on-the-street schttik:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/cains-999-plan-would-cost-average-americans-more,26379/

    “Look, getting America out of this recession demands we all share the bold, written-on-the-back-of-a-napkin sacrifice Cain has proposed.”

    “I for one don’t mind paying more taxes for the greater good of sheer mathematical elegance.”

    “Did someone just say the same number three times? I love it when that happens! Do it again!”

  • Scope

    Ebay now becomes a tax collector, but only on the “new” items, not the gently used items. Anyone who sells items from a catalog or a website now becomes a tax collector for Uncle Sam. And you thought the shipping and handling charges were high?

    • Remington_Steele

      Also, this creates a much higher burden on the cost of “new” items vs. used items which in turn may lead to good old fashion buying used more often than not. Not a great way to create more higher paying jobs.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        • Remington_Steele

          even though it’s been a while… this reply got quite a nice guffaw out of me :P

  • runner12

    You can be sure that Cain will be asked about this article by the media. His 9-9-9 plan has several worrisome flaws. Some of the concerns he expressed in his article are the same I have with his plan.

    He will have to explain what the differences are between what he said then and what he believes now.

    Full disclosure: I am leaning toward Perry.

  • beach91

    I do not understand why Cain just did not want to implement the FAIR tax. At least then when the people with the real bullets come out (ya know the media and the Obamanistas) at least there could be a prebate to stifle the hurting of the poor and elderly on a fixed income! But with a national sales tax on top of a federal tax is really a non-starter for me.

    And what is up with the empowerment zones?? Already ‘crony’ capitalism is creeping in his plan. I say let the cities/states with the severe issues deal with themselves and not from a federal perspective.

    And where in the world is a Flat Tax. Perry are you listening???

  • http://rednexrants.blogspot.com rednex

    To publish a piece, call people names, but then threaten others if they do the same. Agree with me or else seems to the the meme. Disagree with me and I will call you an idiot, I will berate you, I will talk over the points that you made while repeating the same lines over and over again while ignoring actually adressing what you said, but if you dare to do the same to me, I will profess myself a saint by saying “I’ll allow you to do it this one time, but do it again, and you will be banned!” It must be nice to be able to wield the ban hammer but have no concerns regarding reprisals for your own actions. While I see it occasionaly on here, I notice it more often from one specific writer. Ahhhh, to bask in the power! It must be nice.

    • Bill S

      send it to the Contact link. Do not air your grievances here.

  • tngal

    For all the haters of 999—ask yourself would the nation even be having a discussion of fixing our horrible tax code if Cain hadn’t brought it up?. You may not like it but at least it gets people looking. They may be b**ching but they are admitting out loud there is a problem. Grover Norquest is having kittens over it. And even if Cain makes it all the way to Pennsylvania Ave, you do know it won’t stay this way when others get their grubby paws on it, right?. The status quo is not working well!!! Thank you Mr. Cain for getting the ball rolling. Can we at least agree on that?

    • acat

      I’d want to see the details, try to ID the devils in Cain’s proposal before jumping aboard the train – because streiff’s right, adding a new revenue stream without some severe and permanent* restrictions on the existing ones is economically toxic and not conservative.

      As for “having a conversation”, given that the last two longshots to make it to the front of the pack did so on FAIR-TAX platforms (Cain and Huckabee) I don’t find it surprising. I just wish it were going a little better.

      Mew

      * for D.C. values of “permanence”, see also welfare.

      • tngal

        And that’s a good thing. Whenever I see someone with name recognition bring up the fair tax argument it gets buzz on one or two websites and maybe lasts a day. This 999 has been doggin’ (no offense) Cain for a few weeks and you can hardly find a political site that doesn’t have some story on it either for or against.

        Yes we need jobs, and the whole healthcare debacle is, well still a debacle. But now some attention is focusing on taxes. Ryan tries to bring it to the forefront when dealing with budgets and such but he hasn’t been able to hold the attention for this long. Don’t know why. So now people are having to take look.

    • http://lukos.com Ed54

      John Stewart “gets people talking.”

      I like Cain, I really do, but 9-9-9 is not a serious plan. It is a marketing gimmick.

  • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

    Even hit the recco button.
    You guys should promote that to the front page.

  • http://www.redstate.com/thesophist TheSophist

    Selective quotations are something I expect from the NY Times or WaPo, not from you. :)

    Let’s look at the full quote:

    The third reason the national retail sales tax on top of all the taxes we already pay is a bad idea, is that there is already proposed legislation that replaces all of the federal taxes we pay. It replaces all current revenue. It supercharges our national economic growth, and puts the power of taxation back into the hands of the people who spend their money.

    It?s called the Fair Tax. It?s as easy to understand as ABC!

    That?s the problem. It?s fair. It is simple and understandable. But the politicians and bureaucrats do not want to give people more control of their own money. That?s why even though the legislation has been introduced in every session of Congress since 1999, it has not advanced.

    People are not stupid. Maybe they will hear us in 2012.

    So um, Cain hardly thinks 999 is a bad idea. Rather, he thinks the Fair Tax is a good idea, and that 999 is a good interim step to it.

    But good try.

  • bonnman

    I haven’t heard much and would like to see some recent numbers. Anyone have links to info?

    • windwaker24

      He said that he had $1 million or $2 million (can’t remember) on hand and no debt. He also said that he money has quadrupled. Now it’s $4 million, perhaps?

      • bonnman

        then we should see some strong fund raising numbers come in and this needs to happen fast. The whole primary season has been cut short and that money is needed to build a solid Nationwide infrastructure. The plus about Romney is that he’s been doing this since 2007, Cain is brand new and needs to get moving.

      • Xasteius

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/cains-modest-fundraising-haul-doesnt-reflect-recent-surge/2011/10/15/gIQAVVkdmL_blog.html

  • jackdaniels11

    Link: http://race42012.com/2011/10/14/q3-fundraising-update-romney-raises-14-3-million-cain-has-several-hundred-thousand-dollars-coh/

    Romney and Perry both raised over $14 million in the 3rd quarter of this year.

    The surge that Cain is experiencing has yet to translate into dollars.

    One more reason why a general election featuring a Cain might be as disappointing as a general election featuring a McCain.

  • Vegas_Rick

    in the Senate. Since that is never gonna happen, neither is 9-9-9. As a result, the rest of this thread is just useless noise.

  • gherkin

    But honestly, is it that hard to comprehend? Cain was referring to the deficit commission’s reported attempt to tack a sales or VAT tax ONTO the existing tax structure. 999 is a complete replacement.

  • wiredaces80

    With all due respect, this is an absolutely disingenuous attack on Herman Cain that is so twisted out of context that I question whether Mitt Romney or Rick Perry have ties to this blog.

    Here are some questions I would ask:

    When Cain wrote this piece, do you think he was also committing intellectual suicide with regards to his position on the Fairtax, which is a national sales tax? Why or why not?

    When Cain wrote this piece, were there or were there not discussions at the time of adding a VAT tax to the current system ON TOP OF our current tax code, with our current tax rates? (I’ll give you a hint…read the paragraph right before point #3, where he says “”A national retail sales tax ON TOP OF ALL THE CONFUSING AND UNFAIR TAXES WE HAVE TODAY is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country.” )

    Does 9-9-9 mean to keep our existing tax code, and also throw in a sales tax?

    If a new tax revenue stream is added, but several more are abolished (capital gains, payroll, etc), is the end result more or less tax revenue streams, and how visible is the new revenue stream versus the old ones? What do you think?

    With regards to Cain’s point #1, when has Cain said that 9-9-9 alone will solve the spending problem? Has he stated that he will not cut spending, and that 9-9-9 is all we need? Please enlighten me…

    The obvious answers to each of these questions will make it very clear as to the worthlessness of this attack. Why don’t you all just come out and say “We’re sold out for Rick Perry, and will stop at nothing to do what we can to get him back as a frontrunner” ? In the meantime, why don’t you all try to keep your attacks on Cain honest? This blog is losing a lot of credibility.

  • http://www.RayJuniorShow.com/ rayjuniorshow

    Let me start by stating that when I began your “article” I was willing to listen to you. And, prior to reading what you quoted Cain stating, I really thought you might have found some gem from the past where Cain contradicted himself. I wasn’t happy about it, since I’m a cain supporter, but I was willing to listen to you.

    I especially appreciated the fact that you used an extended quote to help with context.

    However, even a retarded 9 year old can see what cain was saying here. And anyone that does even 30 seconds of research on this can see how incorrect you are.

    First: Do you even know what a VAT tax is? A vat tax is not simply a sales tax, it’s a tax at every level of production, which Mr. Cain (who is consistent in this) does not want. Furthermore, no sain (misspelled purposely) person should want it either. A VAT tax places new taxes on the guy who makes the flour when he sells it to the baker, then the baker has a new tax as he sells his goods to the bake shop, then the bake shop has a new tax as he sells his goods to the public. Got it sparky?

    Second: Cain clearly stated he didn’t want a sales tax ON TOP of the current system.

    Third: Mr. Cain has always supported the fairtax, and has stated that this new plan (999) is a bridge to the fairtax and that is, in his estimation, the only purpose of 999 (the bridge). The fairtax is a national sales tax – clearly he supports the idea of a national sales tax.

    You may now resume your normal level of ignorance…
    _Ray

    ps – i’m no longer willing to listen to you.

    • Kudzu

      You’re onto something. I came in with tha same open mind about this being something that would shoot down my chosen candidate but look what happens when you find context.

      Can we expect Perry to bring this up tonight?

    • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

      Cannot.Bear.To.Watch.

  • Kudzu

    Helps to not distort the Message or make people confused thinking they’re on DU or DK. http://dailycaller.com/2010/11/22/dont-be-vat-stupid/

    Is the Daily Caller article and in it Mr. Cain says exactly what streiff says he said but he leaves out a few things. One is that Cain says it’s a bad idea to have a “national sales tax disguised as a VAT”. Because that’s what the Obama admin was/is pushing. Second, 999 isn’t a VAT. Third, Cain states there is no need to add to the revenue stream with “more” taxes…because there is already a plan to replace all federal taxes with a single national sales tax: the fair tax.

    So how exactly is Cain not being consistent?

  • redpenny

    “The Way To San Jose”? Cain is a slick talker,much the same as OBOZZO.His 9-9-9 plan is madness and would never see the light of day.Revision of the tax code is they key to recovery—-a simple flat tax across the board is the answer———-evryone has a dog in the fight and the awesome power of the IRS is dramaticly reduced and thousands of paper pusher there would no longer be needed.At this distant point from election,pools mean little and the cream will rise to the top if given a fair shot to do so.Cool it a bit and see where the chips fall.

  • justandordinary

    At least Cain’s 999 plan has sparked some thinking. One thought can lead to another.

  • deuke

    article. Strieff writes: “….Mr. Cain is absolutely correct… The question for his supporters is what happened between November 2010 and this summer that persuaded Mr. Cain to toss his perfectly sensible opposition to a national sales tax under the bus in favor of 9-9-9?”

    CAIN SAID: “A national retail sales tax ON TOP OF all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country.”
    I think another poster already said it; Mr. Cain is proposing a balanced tax adjustment, not simply a new tax. Strieff is being disingenuous.
    It is obvious to most conservatives that the tax code, as they are today, don’t work as intended – except for those in Congress that love the opportunity to continue dipping into the revenue stream, as they have forever. So Mr. Cain’s proposal is a bold new start, which represents a majority of opinion from conservatives that it’s time to change the status quo.

    • Aaron Gardner

      999 does nothing to change that for the better.

      • red_oakster

        nt

        • Aaron Gardner

          I think Ryan has been clear that he supports having the discussion more so than he supports 999 itself. As for Laffer, I respectfully disagree with him on this.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Hence the need to scrap the tax code periodically and start over. Whether its Flat or 9-9-9. I think 9-9-9 would be better due to the effect on immediate recovery, job creation, entrepreneurial incentives etc.

            But we will always have to be diligent and even then will have to reform again. Even Reagan’s tax changes “only” lasted 25 years!

          • Aaron Gardner

            I’ll agree that the tax code needs to be modified, I just don’t think this is the way to do it.

            I’ll wait until all the competitors plans are on the table before I make my decision on whose is the best.

            Gov. Perry will be putting his out next week. From what I am hearing, it will be a flatter tax that eliminates avenues of taxation rather than creating an entirely new one.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Because Cain’s plan eliminates many avenues and all but 3 absent an amendment, yet gets branded for adding but one and no credit for eliminating so many avenues. That seems lost in this discussion but that may just be me.

            Human nature doesn’t need a sales tax to bring this country to its knees. We are there now. This aversion to even a single digit state-like sales tax unless 3/4 of America comes together like they did to have a legal beer is preventing fair consideration of solutions that unleash business, drastically reduce income taxes and eliminate others (at least until human nature un-eliminates them…get my point? Perry’s plan will not be immune from turning out like Reagan;s did 25 years on. Good 25 years I might add.), and broaden the base.

            Yes, I have long advocated many versions of Flat Tax and I’m sure his would be fine. But that’s no reason for many to make outrageous attacks on 9-9-9 that apply to all plans.

            Another positive for me re 9-9-9, it eliminates the fiction that SocSec is a pension in a lock box. Eliminating FICA gets us closer to real reform of SocSec.

            A sales tax has always been an option, as have cap gains, death, FICA, Medicare, imposts, duties, etc.

            Cain eliminates many. Perry’s will. But to single out any sales tax due to its different nature seems to me excessive.

            John Marshall and Daniel Webster said that the power to tax is the power to destroy. They didn’t apply that truism only to combinations that include income and sales taxes. All taxes suck in different ways and have been and remain an opponent of the FAIR Tax for many reasons esp due to 1) the pre-bate uncle sam in charge of doling out allowances each week due the high cost of the rate (23%?) on goods for the poor; and 2) the excessive discouragement of consumption, which the US needs to grow and remain a superpower. We can’t be Sweden. We must consume at a high level.

            So I can understand an intellectual aversion to some aspects of 9-9-9 and respectfully disagree, especially knowing that Perry will, I’m sure intro a good alternative.

            Plus, while I lean to Cain, If I were a betting man with money (I bet now for fun, but oh if I have money…), I would still predict that Perry is the nominee.

            God bless and good discussion. I’ve written 3 columns on Cain and 9-9-9 and FAIR Tax probs in the past and so have now, for a time exhausted the issue in this rooster’s brain! God bless

          • red_oakster

            I know it’s a weird thesis, but here goes:

            1. There are lots of conservatives who believe Romney would be a Bush 41 disaster and will resist his nomination until the last possible moment..

            2. While many of these folks would like Perry, many don’t and even the ones that do are skeptical of Perry’s ability to salvage his campaign after the debates.

            3. For these anti-Romney conservatives, taking a flyer on a brokered convention with lots of conservative delegates is highly preferable to settling for Romney.

            4. If Cain and others beat Romney during the hyper front-loaded phase of the GOP primaries (Iowa, South Carolina, Florida, etc.), Romney’s “inevitability” withers away. Many delegates will be determined much later. If Romney does poorly in the early phase of the system he himself rigged, he’ll lack the political strength to continue.

            5. Cain himself fails to secure a majority of delegates before the convention.

            6. In the meantime, many conservatives will encourage Cain and speak positively about him, because he’s the candidate who can do the most damage to Romney.

          • deuke

            of so many of you astute observers, but the upcoming election isn’t about status quo political strategies anymore. It’s about the will of the people. What many seem to have forgotten is that 87 freshmen Representatives jumped into the fray of D.C.’s political strategy war on a mission.

            They have learned, some the hard way, that running hell-bent into the walls of the old guard’s mentality isn’t necessarily the way to go. They’ve also learned that they have power and they are supported by Americans at home. I’ll give much credit to the influence of House Whip, Kevin McCarthy.

            Yes, it takes the House and Senate to pass some piece of legislation that immediately changes the status quo. And it is going to be a hard, long battle to overcome self-centered attitudes. Nobody said it was gonna be easy – we just said, that if we’re united in this battle, the Democrats will implode.

            Look, there are realities and then there are other realities. Many say, it’ll never work; Cain can’t get it done; Congress will never pass something this bold, yada-yada. Cain said, “We will pass it because the American people want it to pass!” And he is absolutely right.

            The only problem we have out here is the conservative ‘voices’ that aren’t saying the same thing, other than, ‘Let’s send Obama home…’ Let’s speak with a united voice “GET ER DONE,” Mr. Cain!

            When people speak with a united voice, leaders listen. Stop saying we can’t do it because of the ‘political realities.’ Change the realities. This is isn’t based on hope, it is based on the reality that WE CAN DO IT!

      • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

        no text.

        • Scope

          In an article about 999, Ryan said he liked the idea that someone is coming up with specific ideas, but he in no way endorsed the 999 plan. Many of the current Republican members of Congress will be returning in 2013 when the new president is installed. Many of those same R members, who would have to pass the 999 legislation are not on board, particularly with the new national sales tax proposal. When so many understand that taxes will in fact go up for some, as even admitted to be Cain himself, they will not be melting the phone lines, begging congress to pass a tax increase. As simple as Cain’s plan may sound, it is also that simple to understand the term- tax increase.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            he campaigned on it, won big and then feared Reagan too much to vote against him. This included Democrats called Boll Weevils!

            Its the simplicity that makes it easier to get a 9-9-9 mandate, which while flawed could then pass quickly and get the recovery started. This economy is killing me and others and we are losing patience with the theoryticians that would wait for some perfect budget and FAIR tax epiphany before we act.

          • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

            If we can get a 9-9-9 mandate… we can get a Balanced Budget Amendment.

            A Mandate suggests super majority… if we really can get a mandate on something why not on a Balanced Budget Amendment, before we go on to a sweeping Tax Reform that is as arbitrary as the current system? Spending is our problem in this economy, Not our Tax Revenue Collection system that Government uses to pick winners and losers…

            IF you want the economy to get better… you have to drive confidence across the board… 9-9-9 is just as suspect in my mind as Obama’s eat the rich attitude… The small-medium business community aren’t looking for gimmicks, they’re looking for stability…

            Maybe it reboots the system and everything shakes out well… maybe the system doesn’t come back up right at all, and we’ve just opened pandora’s box… Remember Jurassic Park? “Hold on to your Butts”… As an IT admin this makes sense for a metaphor…

            but I guess for a lawyer you need something like…

            Asking those “theoryticians” to hurry up and cause we’re losing patience… is like asking for a re-write of “Legal Normativity”…

            Let’s throw out the precedent and come up with a standard flat deliberation of all disputes across the board… I’m sure some things will fall through the cracks, but that’s ok, I’m tired of Due Process…

            See my point? I do not believe that we have any degree of sensibility as to what the ultimate and unintended consequences will be of a 999 mandate.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            In elections such as the way 2012 shapes up following the 2010 verdict, current polls and the state of the economy, are the ones that historically are ripe for a mandate and they get defined in the campaign. I reject any notion that we couldn’t get the mandate.

            Moreover, I think we could win so big that even enough Dem senators would fear for their seats. But if not, we could invoke the “new” (Dems have actually quite often waived 60-vote rules) Reid rule and waive 60-vote rules and/o use the budget recon process.

            I guarantee you this, we won’t get a mandate to take bold corrective and restorative action unless try and given how dire are the circumstances in this nation re debt and growth and poverty…the only way we can hope to get change big enough to we worth the effort to get Republicans elected us to seek a mandate from the people and act on that CLEAR mandate.

            What good would be an election victory in which vague conservatism is mouthed and then Boehner and the new GOP senate Maj Leader water down anything Cain. Perry or Romney wanted to do.

            Can’ agree on your fears of 9-9-9′s unintended consequences, but respect your opinion of course.

            The gravity of the current circumstances tempers any worries I have about a new course. But how you could equate fears of 9-9-9 and Obama’s attitude is beyond me. I’m sure you misspoke! smile

          • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

            I was quite clear. Cain is better than some “cult of personality” when people are urging him not to continue on in 9-9-9…

            If we need some sort of populist mandate to effect change in legislation from an Executive’s campaign platform… then we’ve already given in to majority rule, and have thrown out the enumeration of powers, and the separation of powers…

            Populism is Populism… If Cain’s fans on this site can’t understand the “concerns” without suggesting that I’m a Perry-bot… then they’re only proving my point. In addition… you can’t separate the net effect of proposed “revenue neutral” plan to reform revenue collection to effect revenue gains… tell me how we didn’t just raise taxes and provide a vehicle for new revenue generation, and the opportunity to justify stratified x-x-x plans based on “empowerment zones” or any other form of inequality that does nothing to reduce spending, or address the fact that it is Washington that is unable to “sacrifice” their ability to manipulate the use of revenues to pick winners and losers by just adjusting how we collect those revenues…

            Eat the Rich… is just as effective as 9-9-9 in raising revenue for the government to manipulate and spend.

          • deuke

            my sentiments exactly, possibly you word it better.
            The point being that is is absolutely quite possible to take this kind of status-quo-changing legislation from its inception, nurture it through the House and Senate then place it on the POTUS’ desk and say, President Cain, it is an honor to place before you the very bill political strategists out there said could never happen.

            If it gets watered down, as some fear, he can always veto it.

          • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

            What I don’t want to hear is how a 9-9-9 mandate is an endorsement of the people to force Tax Reform the way Healthcare Reform was pushed through…

            Give a framework for congress to work with… and let them hammer it out… if it doesn’t work… back to the drawing board or veto…

            I don’t think 9-9-9 is some sort of heralded clarity of how to “fix” the economy… it’s clear as mud, and poorly defined. Don’t get me wrong… there’s some very valid points… but I don’t thing its the “Hill to Die on”….

          • deuke

            quote is very appropriate, and I agree with you, it may not be the hill to die on, but at least it’s a better cause than, we’ll never be able to do it – why bother trying.

            Herman Cain, if nothing else, knows numbers. All of his education and experience make him better qualified to form a piece of economic legislation that both sides of the aisle and Congresses can get behind, than any of the other candidates. And jobs is the priority these days. A president that can work with Congress to craft an economic package that has the potential to put millions back to work, is the candidate I support.

          • deuke

            Justin Spagnolo. However, isn’t that what the no longer asleep conservative movement is all about? A mandate ‘of the people, by the people and for the people…’ to change the status quo? Our form of democracy – where usually the majority rules, works in most cases. I’d rather see a majority of conservatives overwhelm liberals than vice versa.

            I know that may be too simplistic, but for me that is the heart of the matter; what the core of the conservative movement is all about – changing what has been normal SOP. We realize it’s not going to change over night, but if we are determined to change it, we will.

            I agree with you that one of the major problems is spending, and that adding a new revenue stream is a temptation that Congress just can’t resist. But with taxes on individuals and corporations lowered to 9 percent also, that temptation won’t be as irresistable as imagined.

            MY one concern about the whole deal is that future Congresses may circumvent the movement forward.

          • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

            Allow me to play the sophist here for the sake of enlightenment, not to be disagreeable.

            What are the principles that guide Conservatism?

            What mandates should Conservatism espouse?

            Where is the logic in assuming that the absence of temptation is only slightly better than the reduction in temptation?

            I will allow you to come up with your own answers… but I will simply state I vehemently disagree that the Core of Conservatism is to change SOP. Obama has changed SOP, Harry Reid has changed SOP… and don’t assume I am not cognizant of the fact that you mean SOP in a different sense…

            The point is in my mind the core of Conservatism is to protect the Constitution, and to apply the nature of Original Intent to Social, Fiscal, and Defense issues… not to “toy around with an idea that admittedly may grow the size of government”.

            I am Conservative in the primary, and Republican in the general (most of the time)… but what I won’t abide is the candi-bot mentality that everything *my* candidate says should be Gospel for the WHOLE of conservatism.

      • Vaughn Harold

        the American people! Until the American people get angry enough, and united enough. we will never see spending cuts or a limited government. The people must demand it! Right now, and I emphasize now, Cain is the only candidate that is capturing the spirit of the American people that want the right kind of change.

        • Scope

          when Obamacare was making it’s way through the House and Senate. I would say they had screamed as loudly and as often as any citizenry possibly could. We still have Obamacare. The citizens screamed and melted the phone lines in Washington to stop the passage of the Dodd/Frank Banking Reform, we still have the Dodd/Frank Banking Reform legislation.

          It is totally and completely naive to believe that the citizens of America can demand that Cain’s plan be passed.

          When every Republican and Democrat incumbent in the House and Senate have been sent packing, and the entire body has been replaced with good principled conservatives, then come back and talk to me about the citizens running Washington.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            when we remove enough Democrats to scare the rest.

          • Vaughn Harold

            and therefore the elections. The American people have learned there is only one way to talk to Washington and that’s the ballot box.

          • Vaughn Harold

            no text here

  • tncdel

    “Why does Cain lead Obama by 2% in the latest poll, but ‘Generic Republican’ is beating him by 8%?,” here:

    http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/why-does-cain-lead-obama-by-2-in-the-latest-poll-but-generic-republican-is-beating-him-by-8/question-2230375/

    • n2sooners

      You know, the one that can’t be tinkered with and with tax rates could never be raised? Because that seems to be one point EVERYONE who attacks Cain’s plan brings up, So there must be some alternative plan out there somewhere without that downside or they wouldn’t be bringing that up every time, right? Otherwise it would just make it look like they are reaching for any reason to sway support away from Cain and hopefully toward the candidate they favor.

      • n2sooners

        Didn’t mean to leave that as a reply to you tncdel, sorry.

  • spook

    A VAT is a tax added to the already embedded tax on an item. 999 removes those embedded tax then adds the 9%.

    While I’m at it…. Those who pay a state tax will pay those taxes regardless if the tax code stays the same or is replaced by something else. It is levied and controlled by the state.

    It?s a reflection on the lack of intelligence of those candidates who try to equate 999 with a VAT.

  • inwarresolution

    Conservatives should embrace a sales tax. It’s out in the open, not opaque like payroll taxes. It captures a good portion of the underground economy, and it is ultimately a voluntary tax. http://bit.ly/tdhg5V

    • d_lamar

      They’re hidden. For example, do you know how much federal excise taxes are included in your:

      1. Cell phone bill
      2. Lane land phone bill
      3. automobile tires
      4. Utility bills
      5. New car purchase
      6. Gasoline

      Most people don’t know or care.

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