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The Quickly Evolving 9-9-9

Economics advisors change plan. Campaign contemplates navel.

This just in via AEI. I am not making this up. This is from an interview of The Wall Street Journal’s Steve Moore on Larry Kudlow’s radio show.

I love the idea [of a 9 percent national sales tax]. As you know, Art Laffer and I helped design the plan. But I’ve come to the conclusion that the American people and the voters do not want a national sales tax. He’s going to have to replace that national sales tax with a 9 percent payroll tax. And if you do that it’s a total winner. … I’m surprised how hostile people are to the sales tax. When we designed this plan, I thought people would go along with the 9 percent sales tax. But the point is they won’t. And why not just do a payroll tax. It’s the devil we know …

So now we have a couple more data points.

1. Contrary to Herman Cain’s statements, the designer of the plan was not a hapless Rich Lowrie but rather Steve Moore and Art Laffer. This makes sense. Presumably Cain knows who his advisers are… the alternative is frightening. If he did know this he owes an explanation on his lack of candor. A man who will lie about the identity of his advisers will quite possibly lie about something else.

2. Art Laffer pimped 9-9-9 without disclosing his involvement in its development. Another troubling development, especially considering 9-9-9 would have had more impact if Cain had announced Laffer had developed it.

In addition, we now know that the new and improved 9-9-9 will be a 9% personal income tax, a 9% corporate income tax, and a 9% payroll tax.

According to NRO:

The Cain campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment about whether Cain was considering making the change.

 

 

 

COMMENTS

  • Aaron Gardner

    I fully expect a certain segment of the RedState commentariat to claim they have always thought a 9% sales tax was a bad idea and that the true golden egg of prosperity is a 9% Payroll tax.

    • streiff

      solid B plus

      • Aaron Gardner

        nt

        • izoneguy

          his “own” plan…..

          Art must be in the first stages of Alzheimers. (Or maybe Cain is, if
          he does not know who designed the plan)

          • jjhlh1

            and I don’t have a link since I’ve watched so many interviews over the past month, but I believe I heard Art Laffer say that he has met or consulted with all the candidates.

      • lookingforward

        9 months, 9 debates, and 9 “anti-Romney” candidates later, he will be the nominee. We need to put up a serious candidate and then get behind them.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      this Darwinian stroll down 9-9-9 Lane!

    • lookingforward

      I obviously don’t have any numbers in front of me, but am I to believe that a 9% payroll tax would bring in the same revenue as a 9% national sales tax? That seems very convenient to keep the tag line the same. I just can’t take this seriously.

  • dvdmsr

    go with flat tax; to hell with this fixation with three 9s!

    • streiff

      could go along with that

      • acat

        Not a big fan of flat, I’d rather tax consumption.

        Mew

        • jackdaniels11

          But I don’t see a 9% tax on stupidity getting through the current Senate. Obama would never sign into law a tax that hits him personally.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        9

    • jaykali

      You’d have to trick it up to keep from being overly aggressive and then it’s no longer easy to explain.

      I like the concept but I think in actuality it is too difficult to get passed. No democrat would ever vote to eliminate the federal income tax. I think you have to attack our insane tax code from a different direction.

      • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

        Is if a candidate ran on throwing out the current tax code and replacing it with something simple, and they won in big numbers (thus giving them a mandate).

        That’s exactly what Cain is doing.

        Without that mandate, without it being the centerpiece of their campaign, you won’t get Republicans to go along with it, much less Democrats.

      • renl57

        Every liberal + the one socialist in the Senate will filibuster the Flat Tax to death.

        As for the sales tax part of 9-9-9 being “unpopular,” I’ve got news for you: There is no “popular” way to fix the tax code. No matter how you change it, there will be winners and losers–some folks will end up paying more tax. And the losers are going to howl.

        • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

          Saying it will be hard to pass, is no reason not to try.

          The current tax code is 90,000 (that’s ninety thousand) pages long.

          The code is so complicated, that if you call the IRS and ask them a question, they will refuse to gurantee that the information is correct.

          You could be sent to jail for not complying with the tax code, yet the government is unable to tell you ahead of time if you are complying with the law or not.

          Yea, it’s worth trying to throw the thing out. Frankly, I don’t care what no democrat will do. The current system is a drag on the economy, and it has gotten to the point that it can’t be fixed. It has to be ripped out and replaced.

    • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

      This is part of the marketing to sell the plan. There’s a reason things are $4.99 instead of 5.00, or 99 cents instead of 1 dollar.

      A flat 15-15 plan would be more straightforward, but the double digit numbers would be harder to sell. Mentally, 9 is an inconsequential number, just like 1, 3, or 5. People have a similar attitue towards all single digit numbers.

      It would be easier to sell someone on a 9% payroll tax and a 9% flat income tax rather than a flat 15% income tax, even though the 9 + 9 effective rate would be higher.

      IMHO, this is why Cain has stuck so strongly to the 9′s. His gut from his marketing background tells him that a 9-9-9 plan could be sold to the public, but a 15-15 couldn’t.

      Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Demanding perfection is a recipie to get nothing.

  • jaykali

    Right now it’s just kind of a catchy unrealistic marketing tool and it’s kinda working but getting a lot of scrutiny. The sales tax deal does sound pretty regressive, particularly for seniors on fixed income.

    I would love some total re-writing of the tax code but to change the status quo you have to get past some huge hurdles, the least of which is the hyper-partisan era we live in. If there is any hint of this becoming more regressive (which might be a requirement for any real reform, who knows) then it will get demagogued to death and then we’re still left with a 70,000 page income tax that no one f-ing understands.

    Personally I still think the most realistic is the Romney plan or the deficit commission plan which just lowers the brackets and eliminates loopholes – at least that is my understanding. There is already bi-partisan consensus on this, the President tho doesn’t want real reform bc it interferes with his narrative that Republicans are evil rich guys that want to eat your children.

    • streiff

      the tax code either needs to be blown in place (Fair Tax) or changed incrementally (Romney). This in between step has always been a gimmick.

      • jaykali

        I know conservatives love the Fair tax and if you remember when Cain started his campaign he was pitching the Fair tax, just like Huckabee did. But people just right off the Fair Tax as red meat for conservatives and I tend to agree that it is. Since 9-9-9 is completely new it wasn’t something you could just right off as a gimmick until you actually looked at the details. Now it is being vetted in the public and I think will need some adjustment to avoid being discarded as an unrealistic idea.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        9-9-9

  • benko

    “Art Laffer pimped 9-9-9 without disclosing his involvement in its development.”

    I saw an interview with him about it (video on real clear politics) and I thought he admitted that Cain had asked him i.e. that he was involved in it’s developement.

    • streiff

      got one?

      Because Cain clearly says one guy did it.

      • Change Jar Conservative

        http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/art_laffer_cains_9-9-9_is_a_wonderful_plan.html

        Says it at 30 seconds

      • benko

        It was an interview I saw on the web with Laffer. Not like he said that he created the plan, and perhaps the interviewer had to ask him twice before he said that yes Cain had consulted with him about it.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        just saying
        and I just hope that what Cain says in Vegas doesn’t stay in Vegas!

  • tngal

    I begged all you cain naysayers (you know who you are) to offer up something on how you would tweak it. What would you do differently with 99. Don’t throw the baby out with bathwater, what legs would you change and how. Work with it. But instead, more vitriol against one leg of the plan. I got no problem with things evolving as you put it, if its for the better.

    I also pointed out Cain seems like a listener. Apparently some of his people believe there’s not enough support for that tax so they’re talking about a different way. See, that’s what we call WORKING THROUGH AN ISSUE. If he changes it , *thats if* it proves he listens to the people.

    Well, I don’t know if the latest incarnation of 999 is the way its going to go, but regardless, it still will be changed if he makes to Penn Ave and sends it before congress. There are numerous good points about 999.

    Instead of attacking…offer some suggestions. If you’re not part of the solution you are part of the lousy stinking problem.

    And Streiff if you don’t respect Laffer fine. Just say you don’t like him. Obama’s got a bunch of czars who are looking for facebook pals.

    • streiff

      in 9th grade so I knew what Laffer was doing when he did it.

      I believe in transparency and disclosure. Right now Cain’s campaign is a major #FAIL at both.

      • tngal

        You seem like a smart cookie. You attack the entire campaign based on the plan but then don’t follow through with what you would do to change it.

        I watched hundreds of thousands of people hit washington to rail against obamacare. Maybe you caught the photos. The dems and their fearless leader didn’t listen.

        This sounds to me like a group that actually listens once in the while.

        When people told Romney we don’t like romneycare, he doubled down.

        When people told Perry he was soft on illegal immigration, he slammed back everyone was heartless.

        If enough don’t want that third 9 in the plan they may change it. Simply because they listened to the people.

        • Aaron Gardner

          Surely you have a detailed plan not only to secure the border but to also take care of those who are already here.

          I mean, beyond using a catapult to launch them all back to Mexico.

          • http://online.logcabin.org/about/ suzieQ

            Why have we completely given up on the catapult idea? I still think there is plenty of merit there. :)

        • streiff

          I don’t need to have alternatives because I’m not trying to convince anyone to elect me president.

          So what do you like about a 9% payroll tax? How do you feel about Mr Cain being somewhat less than forthcoming about his advisors? Do you play SimCity? Should the country?

          • jackdaniels11

            City tax.

            We know a video game addict when we hear one.

    • clintonformccain

      Instead of attacking?offer some suggestions.

      OK. Here’s a suggestion. Herman Cain should close up shop, go home, get some experience in public office, and come back when he’s prepared to be a serious canddiate instead of treating this whole thing like a big joke.

      That’s my suggestion.

      • bzip

        Can I please add “I agree – go home Cain get some experience and come back when it isn’t a big joke with you”.

  • bk

    Here in Texas we have a “sales tax holiday” weekend in August before school begins. Clothing items and shoes costing under $100 are exempt from sales tax for the weekend, plus a few other things (backpacks as I recall for example).

    People go absolutely APE for this. It’s incredible. It wouldn’t matter if stuff is marked down 10% or 15% another weekend, all they care about is saving that 9% or so.

    The same people probably have absolutely no idea how much is being withheld from their paychecks. It’s mind-boggling.

    • Matthew Morris

      The cool thing is that with 999, Flat, or Fair- 100% of the population would have that same attitude about their tax rates and the way their tax dollars are wasted and abused.

      That ALONE overrides concerns about a new tax stream, by a factor of about… some number that can only be expressed in scientific notation.

      A hill to die on- but no one is dying this (next) year.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      Ok, I’m done ….smile

  • kinggold

    It’s crap.

    Taken point-by-point:

    1. Contrary to your declaration, the meaning of English words has not changed. Moore said he and Laffer ‘helped design’ the plan. This does not mean Lowrie somehow wasn’t involved. What’s more, this also lends credence to why Cain would not voluntarily disclose that they had helped him design it. Laffer and Moore may not have wanted to present themselves as members of the Cain campaign, and Cain himself chose to respect their confidentiality. Which is a far cry from the grand Rich Lowrie conspiracy you’re pushing.

    2. Oops! Laffer did disclose his involvement with 999. In the interview endorsing the plan, Laffer specifically said that Cain was one of the candidates who consulted him with regard to crafting a tax plan. Not exactly burying the lede.

    Seems to me like altering the 999 plan is up to Cain himself based on whether he can thinks he can sell the sales tax or not. But these consistent attacks are starting to wear thin, much like how the left in 2008 reached for every loose scrap of evidence to smear our ticket. Just for perspective.

    • streiff

      excep;t

      1. Cain said Lowrie did it.

      2. Consulted with is not “helped design.”

      So how is that crap sandwich, want some more tartar sauce?

      • kinggold

        He said (this is from the Bloomberg debate) that Lowrie was the chief architect of the plan, and there were others involved whose names he did not want to disclose at that time.

        But continue to parse words. When your golden boy is jockeying with Ron Paul for fifth, I guess it’s all you’ve got.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        as talking heads talk about them. The GOP nomination battle is defined by 9-9-9. Thank God its not about Evangelicals vs Mormons…

    • kinggold

      may be found here.

      http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/10/13/reagan-economist-art-laffer-i-think-999-is-a-wonderful-plan/

      • streiff

        Art Laffer, an economic adviser to President Reagan, joined Bret Baier to share his thoughts on Herman Cain?s ?999? tax plan.

        ?I think it?s a wonderful plan,? Laffer said. He praised the plan?s structure that he says would ?lower the tax rate and broaden the tax base? while providing people with the least incentive to cheat their taxes. He also emphasized the importance of getting rid of the corporate rate.

        Baier then asked him about many critics? belief that the nines in the plan could be raised limitlessly by politicians in the future: ?Will we ever have a ?20-20-20? plan??

        Leffer said there will always be that problem with politicians and this is a plan the U.S. could benefit from now, as it is a huge improvement from the current tax codes.

        ?The current tax codes are filled with all sorts of awful ducks, chickens, pigs and turkeys,? Laffer said. ?They?ve got to be cleaned out and we have to revamp the codes. I?d really like to see that done.?

        I missed the part where he said he worked on it.

  • eabjr

    Until Herman “changes” the 999, it is not evolving, others’ advice or perception notwithstanding (i.e.S.Moore). This obsession by “steriff” is ridiculous and unworthy of front page at red-state…and so what if 999 is modified? So…? What do the others have, and who is there that has not “modified” something??? Oi…yoi, yoi…c’mon folks!!!

    • streiff
      • eabjr

        you keep working on the irrelevant …very productive they say…

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          Cain will define any evolution, if any, and I am for some. But i do agree with Moore that Americans incl me thought a 23%+ FAIR Tax as out of the question. 9% seems low enough to me, but I am flexible with the standard deduction and other simple options that can get us a mandate for a tax plan that unleashes the american capitalist and small business, even Flat Tax plans. But 9-9-9 is genius in its low starting points. And that’s all any tax plan is, a starting point.

  • adamd

    The 9% sales or payroll tax is a bad idea. Cain/Laffer/Moore would have been better off proposing a 15/15 plan. Americans do not want a VAT tax.. It would hurt the retail sector even with the uptick in earning. Also with the baby boomers retiring I do not think it would go over well with them.

    We all agree that Europe is a mess right now, the VAT tax is not helping their cause. Add the NYC sales tax and a 9% VAT tax and you get a 17.875% sale tax, similar to the national VAT tax you see in many European countries. Most Europeans make large purchases overseas to avoid the tax. Look how much damage the luxury tax did to the boat industry in the United States.

    • oldbird77

      15/15 makes more sense on it’s face than 999. As someone else above said, the devil you know. . . I think no matter who wins, cleaning up deductions will be difficult politically, especially if the mortgage deduction is ever actually on the table.

      • adamd

        I do think the personal income and corporate tax rates are too high and should be cut. But I think a VAT tax would be a disaster.

        There is no politician dumb enough to ever take away the mortgage deduction. With the housing market still a mess I do not see that happening.

        I do see lots of the corporate take breaks going away. I think most Americans do not like the fact that GE has paid zero taxes and Google pays a single digit rate.

        • acat

          One way to simplify the tax code is to stop charging individuals anything. All taxes to be paid by corporations.

          It’s the ultimate stealth consumption tax.

          Mew

      • eabjr

        a 9 % flat national sales tax is not a vat…plus we essentially experience the likes of the vat now w/ all the hidden taxes that travel with production to consumption…

        • Matthew Morris

          Is it deliberate? I don’t usually attribute such motives to fine conservatives such as most of those here on RS, so what gives?

          • streiff

            no matter how many time you write “national sales tax” the Cain-bots will always counter with: “the national sales tax is not a VAT.” And you say, “thanks, genius I know that.” And they say: “the national sales tax is not a VAT:”

            You can do this all day. I did yesterday.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            smile

          • Scope

            smile.

  • oldbird77

    …end up voting for either Cain or Perry. I’m glad to read criticism of either, because I would like to make an informed choice. I would have preferred Christie or Ryan, oh well. But, the last couple posts about the 9-9-9 plan have been written with gleeful vitriol. . . . . or maybe vitriolic glee. I have some reservations about the 9-9-9 plan but I don’t see Cain’s willingness to amend the details while keeping the larger goal in focus to be a mark against him.

    • beach91

      aren’t even in the same league. You should love Romney then cause he and Christie seem to be one.

      • oldbird77

        I’m not a fan of Mittens, to each his own, I guess. I’ll probably end up voting for Perry even though his debate performances have been horrendous.

        What I don’t understand is all the hostility towards fellow conservatives (not just fellow republicans) on this site of late.

        • renl57

          We’ve got a lot of frustrated Perry supporters here who were expecting him to come into the race and sweep all before him.

          That didn’t happen.

          • Scope

            and there are an equal number of very frustrated Mittens supporters trying desperately to defend him, such as you. Problem is, what Mitt, what position are you supporting? The one he swears to today, or the one he supported as Gov.?

            Romney will not be the nominee.

  • politicalgal1

    Small business literally gets the shaft under Cain’s 9-9-9!

    I thought I would do a little tax evaluation of a business owned by someone in our family. It is a golf shaft business – small operation. The shaft is manufactured in Asia and then sold to companies in the United States. While I detest the IRS, currently a small business owner can deduct cost of goods sold, labor, marketing, costs of providing employee health insurance, business insurance, and state income taxes (California business – state taxes very high). Under current IRS tax tables, federal income tax $60,281. Under Cain’s plan, 9% tax on gross income $90,000. Cain does allow deductions for purchases from U.S. located businesses. Since the company’s largest expense is cost of purchases from Asia, this business would not get to deduct the largest cost of goods sold item.

    Assumptions: $1,000,000 gross income
    Cost of Goods Sold and current IRS business deductions : $750,000
    Filing Status: LLC (Schedule C filed on individual return)
    Current Taxable Income: $250,000 (gross income less business expenses)
    Tax Rate: 33% (married filing jointly)
    Tax: $60,281 (tax of $82,500 less $22,219 according to IRS tax table)

  • Change Jar Conservative

    Five diaries in five days?

    Really?

    I didn’t know this was the bash Herman Cain site.

    • izoneguy

      No matter where you put the 9′s – Cain’s plan is Pie in the Sky

      So now Cain wants to reduce payroll taxes by about 6%.
      Wouldn’t this blow up the SS ponzi scheme even faster?

      999 does not add up

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      1. Streiff is an editor
      2. This isn’t posted in the diaries section. It’s on the front page.
      3. We post every day on the front page. Many stories in fact.
      4. Complaints about editors go to the Contact page.

      • Change Jar Conservative

        1 and 4) If I had realized that Strieff was an editor then I would have used the contact page.

        I will take it offline.

        • powertothepeople

          on how your offline whining goes.

          I got

          2-1 A kindly worded response explaining his/her opinion does not count, Streiff si doing his job, he has the full backing of the editor, and a thank you for your concern
          5-1 that he/she gets no response to the crying
          7-1 He/she is sent back an email that contains nothing but laughter
          15-1 An email is sent back with just one word…..And?
          20-1 An email is sent back containing crude words that explain where
          he/she should go

          Send you bets to somepeoplearetoostupidtobreathe@yahoo.com

        • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

          That will ensure complaints about editors to go the guy who actually has the authority to do anything about those complaints.

          • Scope

            Does that have some purpose?

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            We used to have the username link to the diary… but that didn’t work now that you don’t get a diary automatically, so some usernames had no link at all.

        • streiff

          it is a tough economy out there and I’d hate to lose this 6 figure job and access to the corporate jet.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        as a supporter of 9-9-9 that leans to Cain, such a provocative proposal deserves great scrutiny and streiff is doing a good job. This kind of debate will make us stronger and Cain and 9-9-9 stronger for the campaign and governing.

        • streiff

          and a good conservative. I don’t think he’s ready for prime time. Really wish he’d take a run at the GA state house or senate.

          I think 999 is a gimmick that doesn’t bear any level of scrutiny whatsoever.

          • congressworksforus

            But we (the USA) are rapidly running out of time.

            And, frankly, he’s better than the rest.

            And at least he has a plan voters can understand (even if they don’t necessarily like it).

            And, some of us happen to believe “experience” = “bought and paid for”.

    • acat

      If anything, streiff is slacking off!

      (cheshire grin)

      • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

        .

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          on the numbers re revenues generated or a too harsh impact on the poor, and I am poor and live in a state with a 6% sales tax. Most of the arguments against 9-9-9 would apply to any new plan in terms of disasters that could happen in the future, ignore the disaster we have now, cling to a fantasy of repealing the 16th Amendment and the co-fantasy that the FAIR Tax is better than 9-9-9 and would ensure Nirvana till the year 2090.

          I could make stronger arguments against 9-9-9 than I have heard but I won’t!….yet…all plans involving changing taxes will have problems to exploit..

          Telling us what Cain said months or years ago or what advisers say as talking heads doesn’t refute the merits of 9-9-9.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            And that’s likely where we’ll end with this idea. I think the lines have already been drawn.

          • izoneguy

            Study: Cain tax plan raises taxes on 84 percent

            Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan would raise taxes on 84 percent of U.S. households, according to an independent analysis released Tuesday, contradicting claims by the Republican presidential candidate that most Americans would see a tax cut.

            The Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank, says low- and middle-income families would be hit hardest, with households making between $10,000 and $20,000 seeing their taxes increase by nearly 950 percent.

            “You’re talking a $2,700 tax increase for people with incomes between $10,000 and $20,000,” said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. “That’s huge.”

            Households with the highest incomes, however, would get big tax cuts. Those making more than $1 million a year would see their taxes cut nearly in half, on average, according to the analysis.

            Among those in the middle, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 would see their taxes increase by an average of $4,400, the report said. Those making between $50,000 and $75,000 would see their annual tax bill go up by an average of $4,326.

            Tax Policy Center – Herman Cain?s 9-9-9 Tax Plan

          • Scope

            The closer you look at the details, the more there is to not like. I am having fun watching the Cainbots trying to back up a plan that falls apart with every ray of sunshine focused on it. You eventually run out of reasons to back a losing plan.

            If Laffer and Moore thought their plan was such a great idea, they would have been willing to sign there names to it, and promote it loudly, and Cain would have proudly released their names. Obviously even Morre knew it wasn’t a popular idea, and is now trying to run away from it.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            My comment was just for acat, merely a fond recall of Erick’s time-zone-by-time-zone (ie longitudinally-aligned) prophetic utterances about a certain almost-candidate a couple weeks back ;) .

          • acat

            It’s birthed the 9-9-9 drinking game (every time someone says “9″, take a drink!) for watching the GOP debates.

            It’s likely spawned a {heck} of a lot more serious conversations about “how *do* we fix taxes?” than FAIR-TAX or flat-tax types have, thus far, managed.

            That said, as a plan? It’s complete crap. My guess is it’s a trial balloon. One that’s now being tweaked as the sales tax idea did not perform as expected.

            Mew

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            no matter if its a non sequitur.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            I was just up to my night job of greasing the gears of the war machine here with the lead balloons of pun and haiku–think Fr. Mulcahy’s vain attempts to instill “Jocularity! Jocularity!” Glad you dropped by.

    • Scope

      never.

      • Change Jar Conservative

        As noted by Neil, I’ve taken my concerns offline.

      • tyman

        nt

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        It seems you have caught the Redstate “-bot” disease and after all many of us did to save you, smile

        Mike gamecock DeVine is a proud Mike gamecock DeVine-bot

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      The nerve!

      • runner12

        Imagine people wanting to investigate the details of a candidate’s plans. The humanity! The injustice!

        Seriously, everyone needs to calm down. The reality is that Cain’s 9-9-9 plan has flaws. Discussing those flaws does not make one dislike Cain or have an agenda to destroy him

        Secondly, Cain was a little cryptic on his advisors. Maybe he had his reasons, but he needs to explain himself a little more.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          whether an editor or not. I am disappointed in the vacuousness of some, not all, of the attacks and that some seem to go too far for a site whose purpose is to advance conservatism and the GOP, but that is a matter of degree. In toto, I think the debate and streiff’s part in it is good.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            No, even then I wouldn’t call foul, because I deal with the words on the page and don;t care who writes it. I’m an issues guy.

          • streiff

            I am not involved in any way, shape, or form — free, paid, pro bono, anything — with any campaign at the national, state, or local level. And no one should vote for any candidate who would hire me.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            of all landscaping companies he has hired over the years?

  • Whacker77

    I don’t believe Cain is the right choice for president. He has no elective experience and history tells us that is very important for a president. Coolidge, Roosevelt, LBJ, and Reagan all has extensive backgrounds in politicis at all levels. The presidency is a very hard job. It’s nothing like being a House member or member of the Senate.

    Cain offers some interesting ideas, but he also says a lot of other things. After running for president for six months, it’s hard to believe he doesn’t know what neoconservative means. It’s hard to believe he meant as a joke his comments on an electrified fence. I saw the video from Tennessee this past weekend. It’s also hard to believe he won’t name his advisors.

    His lack of government experience should make it completely unlikely he would be a serious nominee. Yet, it’s those qualities that seem to have conservatives swooning over him. It’s been a strange cycle so why not go with a guy who’s never been elected to anything.

    • tyman

      To say something like that on the campaign trail that can come back to haunt you (and it will) is beyond me.

      If Cain was saying that to rile his audience up, it worked. Funny, they didn’t think it was a joke either: I heard applause and not laughs.

      However, it may go a long way to show what the LSM has been saying: the Tea Partiers are racist. I don’t believe they are, but I don’t think we should add to the perception.

      As I’ve said before, I was excited when Cain announced, but it didn’t take very long to realize that Cain was lacking some very important items.

      Something that I’ve been mulling over is that Cain is all of a sudden a top tier candidate. So why didn’t he become that before Rick Perry got in the race? Remember how everyone kept saying how weak the field was before Perry got in? What else changed? I think Cain is the media’s flavor of the month and that the polling results are skewed to support this. I used to think Obama would be terrified to run against Herb, but I feel quite the opposite now.

      And 9-9-9 is only going to give Obama more ammunition than they ever dreamed of.

      • renl57

        “Something that I?ve been mulling over is that Cain is all of a sudden a top tier candidate. So why didn?t he become that before Rick Perry got in the race?”

        Because Rick Perry was expected to *be* that top-tier candidate. Back then, all the conservatives were just standing around just waiting for Perry to enter the race so that they could support him.

        When Perry stumbled, many switched to Cain as the other true conservative. If Cain weren’t in the race, they might have switched to Bachmann.

        • Scope

          those that were waiting for Perry to get in the race did so because of his record. Those that did that homework are still with him. If Bachmann didn’t make a fool of herself over the Gardasil makes you mentally retarded meme, she would have made an equal fool of herself trying to outshine another candidate with no intelligence to accomplish the hit.

          Romney can’t get above a very static low polling result, despite running now for 90 years. He won’t be rewarded with his life’s ambition, to become the pres. this year either, no matter how much he is willing to buy the presidency.

          • tyman

            Renl,

            I appreciate your answer, and I’ve thought about that. However, I am just amazed that it took Perry getting in for people to see this about Cain (of course the media played him up when it was convenient to hurt Perry for Romney’s sake). To me, that says A LOT about Rick Perry and how Romney needs all the help he can get to get the nom. It also says that people had their expectations way too inflated about Perry.

            As Scope mentioned, I looked into Perry’s record before he got in, and I’m still with him.

            I think before it’s over with, people will come back to Perry.

        • Scope

          Cain was the first to announce, way back in January. Perry didn’t even have a race on his radar back then. Perry didn’t have a race in mind much before Julyish. No one was sitting around waiting for Perry to enter the race, and holding back on any other candidate much before then. Your comments are now off the rail of believability and/or credibility.

      • Whacker77

        You wondered, and quite rightly, why all of the sudden has Cain become a top tier candidate. The answer is simple. The field is a joke. Say what you want about Romney, but he is a credible candidate. Say what you want about Huntsman, but his background makes him a credible candidate. The same goes for Perry.

        Havins said that, everyone else is just a vanity candidate trying to make a name for his or her self. Bachmann, Cain, and Santorum would all be ankle biters in any other year. But because so many passed, they have gotten a closer look and we haven’t really like what we’ve seen.

        If the field were Mitt, Daniels, Barbour, Jeb, and Thune, would any of the people we’re currently discussing be a factor?

  • beach91

    I for one am glad to see that this 999 plan is getting fully vetted..even if it is you doing the work and taking the shots! I like your diaries and it sure brings out the people that are so fully in Cain’s corner that they cannot see straight at times. Cain’s plan became a non-starter for me when he declared ‘empowerment zones’ and I was leaning toward him. For the time being I remain in the Perry camp.

  • nycenterright

    A 9% payroll tax is just a straight rate-increase, no?

    • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

      The current payroll tax is 15.3% (or I should say will go back up to 15.3% in January).

      9 is less than 15.

      One thing that isn’t clear though, will you only pay it on the first $106,800 of income as is the case with the current 15.3%, or will it not be capped?

      If it isn’t capped, then it could end up being a huge tax increase on the rich. We couldn’t have that, since everyone at OWS knows the GOP hates to tax the rich. /sarcasm

      • clintonformccain

        All wages in Cain’s plan are taxed at 9% as part of what he calls the “corporate” tax.

        Then, the wages are taxed an additional 9% personal income tax.

        Sounds, like there will now be a third 9% payroll tax.

        No matter how you slice it, that’s a flat tax on wages of 27% across the board. You could call that a lot of things, but most people will not be able to call it a tax cut.

      • Scope

        and Cain himself, and his supporters are trying to make his plan sound better by saying employees are paying 15.3%. Employees currently only pay 7.65% for payroll taxes. The employer pays the other 7.65%. The employer then deducts that tax expense as a write-off. The current rate paid to the IRS by employers is a total of 15.3%. The employee does not get to deduct the FICA tax paid, but the employer does. It’s a lie being used by Cain to make his plan look better.

        • GregInFla

          for all self-employed people and business owners who also are not eligible for unemployment assistance. And, for the case of employees, if the business is not paying its half of the OASD/MC, it is free to lower prices to become more competitive with foreign emploers, pay employees more, and decide to save it where it can get used for investing by others. The point is, the cost of hiring an employee includes the entire 15%. While is may be a deductible expense, it is not a tax credit.

  • clintonformccain

    And, I think Cain will be able to stick with $9.99 for any three toppings in his tax plan.

    • Scope

      if you buy his $9.99 tax plan, and even wagu beef on Friday nights.

  • GregInFla

    You seem to think so. Sorry, but seeing the daily bash-Cain diary is getting tiresome. Redstate mods have objected strongly to commenters coming on and constantly bashing a candidate instead of pointing out the positives for other candidates. I guess it’s not a problem anymore here if it’s done on front page diaries.

    • Craigpennsylvania

      Thank You.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      FTR, I think Cain held his own last night.

      The spin is against DeVine. I suspect CNN is being duplicitous in wanting to boost Perry to weaken Mitt and the whole field and it seems Perry supporters are so happy to see he has a pulse that they have lost their moral compass on what he actually did, which was ugly.

      I would never accuse anyone in that way even if the newspaper accounts are true because they do not meet the standard of KNOWINGLY hiring illegals. I wouldn’t ever bring that up but if I were a hardliner on the issue I still don’t think its proper to make such allegations unless the person has been convicted of the offense or they admit it in public.

      This qiality of restraint is especially important in the Chief Executive who executes the laws, ie prosecutes violations of the law.

      from earlier

      But I guess I am very sensitive to allegations of personal venality outside of the legal process and especially on a subject that requires a premise that I don’t accept, ie that we should check the citizenship status of all companies we hire and that if they are caught we should not do business with them again even if assured they are not hiring illegals. And for a Texas citizen much less governor to make such assumption is more hypocritical that the accused. Especially when Texas doesn’t make sure that the in-state tuition they collect is not from illegal work! It was what we call in the South, ugly. You don’t call out your neighbor like that especially when the premise is unrealistic.

      Then the show of temper looked ugly.

      I am held to exacting standards and so I hold others to those same standards.
      I would NEVER accuse someone of something that is illegal or question their word or integrity absent proof, and the fact that a company HAD hired illegals doesn’t mean that he knew nor that he knew they continued to do so after he confronted them the first time. I have seen the whole exchange on transcript from the debate and the statements of Mitt back when this came up and all he said was to the landscaper is that he had to be even more careful as he was running for office.

      Reminds me of the things people said during Prohibition about saving face. Of course it shouldn’t be wrong to hire illegals since everyone else is or is abiding it.

      And for Perry of all people to take this cheap shot disgusts me.

      From the mind and heart of DeVine. I would never do what Perry did and I don’t like people that do things like that.

      • izoneguy

        Sure – If Mitt takes down his smear website on Perry with his lies about Texas job growth.

        But just as Perry said, the study has come under fire from some who claim it is based on flawed methodology

        Romney?s claim is based on a September report from the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that advocates for lower immigration. According to the report, ?Of jobs created in Texas since 2007, 81 percent were taken by newly arrived immigrant workers (legal and illegal).? And, the report states: ?Of newly arrived immigrants who took jobs in Texas since 2007, we estimate that 50 percent (113,000) were illegal immigrants. Thus, about 40 percent of all the job growth in Texas since 2007 went to newly arrived illegal immigrants and 40 percent went to newly arrived legal immigrants.?

        But just as Perry said, the study has come under fire from some who claim it is based on flawed methodology.

        Pia Orrenius, an economist and immigration expert at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, told the Dallas Morning News the methodology is ?misleading? because, ?[y]ou?re comparing gross inflows to net job creation. You have to compare net to net.?

        Chuck DeVore, a visiting senior fellow at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, also wrote an analysis critical of the CIS study:

        DeVore: Put simply, CIS compared a net increase in jobs in Texas over a four year period with a gross increase in employed newly arrived immigrants in Texas. This is truly an apples to oranges comparison that should be thought of in the same way as if a report claimed that Google is a larger company that Apple because its market capitalization of $162 billion exceeded Apple?s annual revenues of $100 billion.

        CIS stands by its study, but one of the study?s authors, Steven Camarota, told us if people prefer the ?net to net? figures, those are included in the CIS study as well. And those figures are much more modest than the numbers given by Romney in the debate. Since the second quarter of 2007, the employment of foreign-born immigrants in Texas increased by 150,000 compared with an increase in employment for native-born workers of 130,000. By that calculation, immigrants counted for 54 percent of the net increase ? not 81 percent.

        DeVore called that ?a more supportable contention? and an ?apples to apples comparison.?

        But not all of those immigrants were illegal immigrants. Camarota said he did not have figures on how many of that 54 percent were illegal immigrants, but he said, ?I would guess it?s less than half.? That puts the percentage of job growth taken by illegal immigrants somewhere closer to 20 percent, he said. That?s still a ?very big number,? Camarota said. But it?s a far cry from the ?nearly half? cited by Romney.

  • Rhampton

    I Wonder: since the era of TV, what percentage of (serious) policy proposals made during a presidential campaign are actually attempted during a president’s term? I suspect it’s a low number, and for good reason. Once a President’s staff is in place, has access to the highest levels of resources and information, and gets a feel for how far the Hill will cooperate, proposals are likely altered to fit conditions. IOW “No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.”

    More telling, perhaps, is the staff a Presidential campaign puts together, as it indicates the potential direction and magnitude of the policies to come.

  • tngal

    Mr. Cain gets into a discussion about prisoner swaps, then says he could see himslef possibly let all gitmo prisoners go in exchange for one u.s. pow.

    I love Cain to pieces, and yes he does speak his mind. Well , he’ll do what it takes to get our guys home, I’ll give him that. .

    You should go to Hot Air and view the clip. It was part of a decision re: Netenyahu.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/18/herman-cain-sure-i-can-see-myself-releasing-everyone-at-gitmo-in-exchange-for-one-u-s-pow/

    • Scope

      The guy who left many many of our POW’s in Vietnam. Cain is so foreign policy deficient he is a joke.

      • defenseconservative

        Kissinger is also the chief author of the 1970s’ failed detente policy, i.e. appeasement towards the Soviet Union and massive unilateral defense cuts by the US. He supported both SALT treaties and the ABM Treaty. He supported the Helsinki Agreement. He supported massive defense cuts and, when he and SECDEF James Schlesinger sparred on these issues, Ford sacked Schlesinger instead of Kissinger. Today, he still supports appeasement policies towards Russia and China and endorsed the treasonous New START treaty.

        If Kissinger is really one of the biggest foreign policy influences on Cain, then I will not support Cain for any office, not even dog catcher, not even against B. Hussein Obama.

  • Ausonius

    should show the “90,000 page” tax code mentioned earlier: if printed on both sides of the paper in a 500-sheet ream, which would equal 1,000 pages therefore, an impressive stack of 90 reams could be shown!

    If one read 2 pages a day, you would need 45,000 days to complete it.

    An 80-year old has lived fewer than 30,000 days.

    In our increasingly illiterate and illogical society, such graphics become ever more necessary to convince people that our our tax code is a disaster.

    And an “exploding” graphic, showing all the taxes on e.g. a loaf of bread or a gallon of gasoline, should be pounded into the heads of the electorate on an hourly basis.

    If Cain is the nominee, fine: he has a head start on the issue. Whoever the nominee is, he/she must make the issue a top one, for it would seem that a small majority at least wants something BIG done about taxation and debt. Pirouetting around the subjects a la Romney (so far) will not work.

    Republicans need to tap into this desire: if they do their business-as-usual act, people will turn away in disgust.

    Otherwise, get ready for class warfare and the continued decline of America.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    Honestly, everything I read on this website these days, with the exception of Erick Erickson’s posts, are total hit jobs and smear pieces. That’s exactly what this is, and doesn’t deserve to be on the front page.

    • congressworksforus

      And Streiff, if you want to know where you went wrong, look no further than the subheading.

      It is one thing to dissect a plan and talk about its flaws; it’s another to put “Campaign contemplates navel” in the subheading and expect people to take the diary as a serious analysis versus a hitjob.