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The Reticulating Splines of Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 Plan

"YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!"

Yesterday I braved thundering waves of  ignorance to examine Herman Cain’s own very well reasoned opposition to one-third of his 9-9-9 Plan on these pages less than a year ago. As far as I can tell the defense fell into three categories: 1) Herman Cain is our POINT GUARD!!1!1! and you’re a stinking RINO if you don’t know that, 2) Herman Cain speaks in parables and despite what he said you are misinterpreting what he meant as mere humans often do and, 3) I can’t be bothered to read either his old op-ed or the post on the subject because a national sales tax is not a VAT.

Even people who had recommended his op-ed when it appeared last year condemned the substance of that op-ed yesterday. That was then, this is now.

Today’s burning question is: Did Herman Cain get his 9-9-9 plan from the default resource settings on SimCity?

I like computer simulations as well as the next guy. I haven’t played Sim-Anything for about 10 years but I do enjoy Civilization on occasion… when my wife isn’t around. I wouldn’t, however, base my foreign or economic policy on anything I learned from that game were I running for higher office.

Yesterday, HuffPo’s Amanda Terkel (yes, I will use this as a source because it is the source and I’m a stinking RINO Romney supporter) posted a story entitled: Herman Cain 999 Plan: Did It Come From SimCity? In my view, the answer is no and Jon Huntsman probably got closer to the truth than anyone will admit, but let’s see how this story started.

WASHINGTON — In Herman Cain’s America, the tax code would be very, very simple: The corporate income tax rate would be 9 percent, the personal income tax rate would be 9 percent and the national sales tax rate would be 9 percent.

But there’s already a 999 plan out there, in a land called SimCity.

Long before Cain was running for president and getting attention for his 999 plan, the residents of SimCity 4 — which was released in 2003 — were living under a system where the default tax rate was 9 percent for commercial taxes, 9 percent for industrial taxes and 9 percent for residential taxes. (That is, of course, if you didn’t use the cheat codes to get unlimited money and avoid taxes altogether.)

The game’s publisher, Electronic Arts, is predictably psyched and for a limited time they will sell SimCity for $9.99 in honor of Herman Cain’s plan, a savings of $10.

Herman Cain is predictably not amused:

“It’s an original idea, and to people who say it’s modeled after a game — it’s a lie,” Cain said during a campaign stop in Tennessee. “That’s all I’m going to say. It is a lie. You see, that’s the difference when you become one or two in the polls. People make up stuff. That is a lie. I’m not going to take it back and not going to politically say, but unfortunately, that is not totally true. It’s a lie.”

Did he mention that the story is a lie? I missed that, but he should have called it a lie.

So how did the plan originate? We simply don’t know. Herman Cain has declined to say who his advisers are on foreign policy, economic policy, or any policy whatsoever.

“They have their own independent businesses, and I don’t want to compromise their confidentiality at this point,” Cain told host Chris Wallace. “When they tell me it is OK to mention their names publicly, I will mention it.”

Though Cain’s been unwilling to reveal the names of his advisers, he has held up the 9-9-9 plan as a model of transparency. On stage at the debate on Tuesday, Cain repeated a favorite line, that one of the steps to problem solving he often boasts is to “surround yourself with the right people.”

Cain also said on Tuesday that he had two potential nominees to appoint as Federal Reserve chairman, but he refused to name them, either.

“I got to keep them confidential,” Cain said.

At it’s best this is a dodge. When this is combined with a response such as Mr. Cain gave to Jon Huntsman in the last debate, a statement notable for being virtually free of any semblance of factual accuracy (9-9-9 probably won’t pass; it is the price of pizza somewhere; it has been neither well studied or well developed; it doesn’t throw out the current tax code because it retains the personal and corporate income tax; there is no evidence that the American people want to see the price of milk increase by 9% or their home mortgage deduction disappear or social security and medicare to be defunded; and Jon Huntsman is a former governor, not a senator):

“9-9-9 will pass, and it is not the price of a pizza, because it has been well-studied and well-developed,” said Cain, the former chief executive of Godfather’s Pizza, who is credited with turning around the business when it was failing in the late 1980s.  “It starts with, unlike your proposals, throwing out the current tax code. And it will pass, senator, because the American people want it to pass.”

one starts to question Mr. Cain’s candor.

The only person we know who was involved in developing the 9-9-9 Plan is a Mr. Rich Lowrie. Even though Mr. Cain claimed Mr. Lowrie was an economist:

“My advisers come from the American people. Now, I will have some experts. One of my experts that helped me to develop this is a gentleman by the name of Rich Lowrie out of Cleveland, Ohio,” Cain said during the debate. “He is an economist, and he has worked in the business of wealth creation most of his career.”

As we now know, Mr. Lowrie is an accountant by training and is currently a “wealth manager” employed by Wells Fargo who was formerly on the board of directors of the third party. There may or may not be actual economists working on this plan but at first blush it seems very unlikely. Does this mean the plan won’t work? Not necessarily but if we’re going to be expected to believe that it will work it would be nice to know who, in addition to some rich guy’s private banker, helped develop it.

If Mr. Cain is not just a bored rich guy who is now acting like the dog that finally caught the car, he needs to get serious. The more we know about his selection of advisers the more the Cain campaign resembles something run by the seat of its pants. Mr. Lowrie is an accountant. His chief foreign policy and defense adviser, Jeffrey Gordon, is a career Navy public affairs officer who has moved on lobbying. We need to know who his advisers are and we need to have some discussion on how his plans were developed. And it would be nice to know that before the first caucus or primary.

 

COMMENTS

  • lookingforward

    This is one of Herman Cain’s steps to problem solving (he claims to be a problem solver by trade). If this is the case, it would seem important to the voters to know who Herman Cain is surrounding himself with, so that we can decide for ourselves whether they are, in fact, “good people.” I don’t think the 9-9-9 plan came from SimCity, but how are we to know when he refuses to tell us where it DID come from? Many of the “anybody-but-Romney” primary voters have migrated to the Cain camp, but if he doesn’t start acting like a top-tier candidate, he will quickly go the way of Michelle Bachmann.

    • izoneguy

      Don’t you think he would be touting their experience and if they would play a role in a Cain administration?

      • Bill S

        .

      • Death_of_the_Donkey

        when he is really an accountant doesn’t help either. Accountants aren’t exactly trained in macro modelling.

        • aesthete

          there is a difference between micro and macro. I’m not a full-fledged economist, but I’ve worked with many on research projects and beyond what they learned on their own or in their undergrad, they don’t know jack about macro modelling. (Neither do I, beyond what I learned in a couple of elementary stats, econometrics and math modelling courses).

        • Scope

          Cain’s senior economic adviser isn’t an account, he’s a financial adviser. Accountants, especially CPA’s have clear knowledge of how a businesses financial statements work. They are some that are having the most problems with the 999 plan. That is, with what is currently known about it.

          • kinggold

            Lowrie is an accountant by training, though he’s not a practicing accountant. What’s more, accountants need not be CPAs to be intimately familiar with financial statements.

            I’d certainly like to know more about Mr. Lowrie’s taxation philosophy and who else helped to craft the plan, there’s no basis in fact to classify Lowrie as uninformed about taxation and financial reporting.

  • In The Hook

    … that it’s going to be Romney.

    We know. I’m not particularly enthusiastic about that fact, but it seems pretty apparent.

    Remind me again why we had to destroy a thin bench by trotting out Bobby Jindal as the response to the first SOTU? What might have been.

    Well you go with the cards you’re dealt, the team you have, not what woulda, shoulda, coulda and our field is certainly far superior to what’s being offered by the incumbent’s party.

    • streiff

      I simply think that Cain is benefiting from a honeymoon period and he hasn’t received a serious examination of anything.

      For instance, his 9% income tax gets rid of the 13.8% SS/Medicare payroll tax? How are those programs funded? If we go to a “Chilean style” system, is the presumably mandatory employee contribution part of that 9% or in addition to it? We don’t know. Same with any other point under “Issues” on his website. His campaign is about one web page deep and that needs to be shown before Obama gets around to doing it.

      • Vaughn Harold

        of Romney’s plan, and the rest of Perry’s plan.

        Streiff, it’s obvious to everyone that you don’t like Cain’s 9 9 9 plan, so the only point in putting these front page posts up are to bring Cain’s polling numbers down so that another candidate can move up, which candidate, I would put my money Perry. I like Perry, and I hope tonight that he doesn’t look like a dear in the headlights.

        • streiff

          is not the same as saying he’s a bad candidate. Personally, I think he’ll bow out in a couple of months and Romney will retire his campaign debts a la Pawlenty. Having said that, if he gets the nod for the nomination the 9% sales tax is going to kill him. in the general election. To think that can’t be demagogued is just wishful thinking.

          • Vaughn Harold

            politics involved, but I will respectfully disagree.

          • wrenhal

            If you’d pay attention, Herman Cain has NO DEBT. Even though he’s pulling less money than the others in donations (which by the way means nothing because the number of donations has increased immensely), he is running on a no debt campaign model, unlike the others.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        There are many good ways to replace the current tax code and I’m glad Cain changed his mind on 9-9-9, which prior criticism was born of investing too much hope in FAIR’s merits and in the dream of repealing the 16th Amendment. So, given that FAIR and other imagined Utopias are off the table, we are left with imperfect plans, none of which that I have heard have less negatives, more positives, is so simple it can flexibly make some adjustments, and is so simple that it could garner a mandate in the upcoming landslide that it could get passed quickly and get the recovery we so desperately need started as quickly as possible for those suffering desperately in this recession.

        You make good points streiff, as usual, but not persuaded and think Cain can take at least 997 more criticisms and be just fine.

        God bless

        • Death_of_the_Donkey

          it will be the general when the bad math of Cain’s 9-9-9 plan(to almost any family making less than $100k and possibly quite a bit more) will be exposed and broadcast every night for months on end. In a general I think Cain (if he stands by 9-9-9) would lose many Republicans who figure out how bad they would be hit by the plan too.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            By the time Cain is the nominee, 9-9-9 will have been vetted! Fear the general? Not me.

          • Death_of_the_Donkey

            He published it on his website and unless it changes significantly from that pre-election, every American will get to vet their own individual case. My guess is that most Americans will choose the vague (and not personally harming) tax and spend over the specific $2000 tax increase.

          • Death_of_the_Donkey

            Cain’s entire scheme is based on the belief that companies will immediately cut their prices by the amount the corporate tax rate is reduced and thus end up with a net zero change in amounts paid by consumers (that came right from the mouth of his “advisor” on Kudlow). I guess you have to believe that to have faith in the plan.

          • streiff

            if 9-9-9 is truly a transitional plan then businesses would know they are staring a 23% tax on all goods and services they purchase. It wouldn’t make any sense for them to reduce prices under those circumstances.

          • Jim Tomasik

            That is not accurate.

            Again, FairTax is not a VAT. When a business buys materials to be used in the products they are selling, those materials are not taxed.

    • kinggold

      The author could be pinning his hopes on Rick Perry, who’s currently running single digits in all three early primary states.

      In other words, yeah, Romney.

      • Aaron Gardner

        And we know from experience that that can’t change. Ever.

        • Jim Tomasik

          Cain started at the bottom and has worked his way to the top.
          Perry started at the top and has worked his way to the bottom.

          • streiff

            end up at his appropriate place on the ladder.

          • Jim Tomasik

            Despite your ignorance.

          • streiff

            Jim Tomasik
            Registered: 4 years, 2 months

            I’m Roman Catholic and we’re big believers in free will and exercising prudential judgment. Now ask yourself, is this worth burning down your account because the next time you insult me you are gone. I don’t know how to make it any clearer.

            I don’t care if you agree with me or not but you’re not going to continue doing this crap here.

          • skorrent1

            Only streiff can indulge in ad homina.

          • streiff

            file it under “Life Ain’t Fair.”

            I here these folks are looking for posters if you don’t like it here.

          • SKully

            Goose has this sewn up.

            “Yesterday I braved thundering waves of ignorance to …”

            Although I believe this is a better argument today
            against the PLAN, rather than the MAN.

            We still need to get the guns pointed outward, though.

          • Aaron Gardner

            And he will be seen for what he really is… Huckabee.

          • Jim Tomasik

            Perry is Huckabee. Not that that is all bad.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Cain is. Just like Huckabee did.

            Try again.

          • Jim Tomasik

            on immigration.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Not so much to anyone willing to engage their brains though.

          • Jim Tomasik

            !

          • Aaron Gardner

            n/t

          • Jim Tomasik

            That was just stupid. What are you 12yrs old or something?

            Run along and play now, skippy..

          • streiff

            hit the contact button if you think you can pay attention in the future. If that’s too hard, have a nice life.

          • Scope

            This guy didn’t debate policies or issues. His main focus here has been to do nothing more than taunt the Perry supporters. Now he’ll have more time to contemplate his methods of supporting Cain, rather than trashing anyone who supports Perry.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      …Jindal would have been protected from flubbing the SOTU response so he could flub something else later, on a potentially bigger and more critical stage. That solves our problem how?

      • In The Hook

        And I think it would have been best to just toss in some mid-name guy, let him take his hacks and go down swinging. Jindal has been good in La. and good on TV nationally.

        In my dream case, of course, he doesn’t screw up or at least he understands that something from ’09 is basically the ancient past come late ’11 and ’12. That’s 100% on him of course. At least he’ll continue to do a great job in the Bayou.

        As for the rest of this conversation, I don’t think streiff is embracing Romney here. Or Perry. Or anyone else. I think he’s played devil’s advocate on all of our candidates and it’s 100% necessary. If our candidate can’t stand up to scrutiny in the primary, he’ll get decimated in the general. Even gold has to be tested in fire and we don’t have gold this time around. Fortunately we don’t NEED gold, but we do need our guy to be battle-tested.

  • annplato

    Deficiency of trust is the “malaise” or our times. Herman Cain IS a credible candidate, as far as I am concerned. I don’t know if anyone noticed the way he answers questions: he REPEATS the question in all his answers. THAT is a marker of a NON-politician, and THAT is what is needed to regain TRUST and ease cynicism.

    His 9-9-9 plan is NOT perfect, however in the article posted yesterday by streiff, apparently he omitted to emphasize that Mr. Cain said that a VAT ON TOP of the existing tax code is BAD and does not solve the underlying problem. Hi 9-9-9 plan is built on the premise of getting rid of the ENTIRE present tax code. In order to still get the present revenues for government to function he (and his advisors) came to the number 9.

    All in all if Art Laffer sees it as something doable, than I trust that it is.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Or is only Herman Cain the beneficiary of this need for trust?

    • streiff

      at no point does Cain say that. He talks specifically about a national sales tax.

      For instance:

      Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

      I’m not going to continue to argue this non-issue with idiots who can’t be bothered to read.

      • http://www.ufcle.com/willis/willis.htm Steven Willis

        I count two very clear times Cain referred to a sales tax “on top of” existing taxes and once where he referred to a VAT in a similar manner. To quote one from your earlier Diary:

        “A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane!”

        I agree; however, I understand he would replace the confusing and unfair existing taxes with two simpler ones. You are correct that he would not truly discard the entire Internal Revenue Code. Indeed, he would certainly have a 9% tax on business income, which would necessitate a definition of business income and the timing thereof. Whether this would turn out to be just for corporations or whether it would involve all entities (current C corporations, S’s, partnerships, trusts, estates, LLC’s, and sole proprietorship is not fully clear).

        Similarly, he would have a 9% income tax for individuals, which would necessitate a definition of personal income, as well as its timing. Some coordination between the personal and business would be needed.

        Key to this is that it is plausible. The large majority of the IRC exists for things unnecessary to a clear definition of income and timing. This is particularly true for a flat-tax system and even more so for one with a low rate. Incentives for distortions would often not be worth the cost.

        We could rid ourselves of Subtitles B, C, D, E, and F (plus the later, relatively unimportant ones). Within Subtitle A, we could rid ourselves of all credits, all personal deductions, all limitations on deductions, all related party provisions, all character provisions, most exemptions (especially all the private foundation rules), the depreciation rules (as well as the recapture rules), and much more.

        To suggest, as someone above did, that it would retain the current system is misleading. Clearly it would not be a single page; however, it also would not comprise over 5000 pages plus over 15,000 pages of regulations. It would be far shorter.

        Whether it would raise sufficient revenue (or perhaps excessive revenue) is not clear: that is not my area.

        I don’t think I’m an “idiot” and I do think I’ve bothered to read. I’m not sold, yet, but I am attracted to the plan. Clearly it can work procedurally, with a great deal less compliance costs. Clearly it would raise a great deal of revenue: the effective rates are not – on their face – far off of the current effective rates.

        I agree we need to study it more; however, calling people “idiots” in advance of discussion is not helpful.

        • streiff

          first, the story isn’t about your views on 9-9-9. We’ve talked about that on the front page three times, in my posts, and a couple more times by other front pagers. If you want to talk about your views on how this will work in absence of any word on how it will work from the candidate’s campaign, that’s what the diaries are for.

          As a professor of law, you, of all people, should be wary of wading into arguments where you aren’t a party and where you clearly don’t understand the issues underlying the argument you’re trying to get involved in.

          But knock yourself out.

          • http://www.ufcle.com/willis/willis.htm Steven Willis

            I’ve managed to file amicus briefs in most of the Health Care litigation. I am not a party there, but I am proud to get involved. I got involved largely because the parties missed issues I believe are important.

            You are correct, I have not added to the prior discussions on this site regarding 999. Perhaps I should have. But, if this involves some personal issues and arguments that the general participant would not understand, then why open it for comments? Why not have your arguments in private? How do you know I “clearly” do not understand the issues? I am quite confident I know a great deal of tax law and accounting.

            I thought I was welcome at Red State. You likely have very few other law professors who support this site, so you should be careful about being dismissive of those who do.

          • streiff

            I don’t see how a lack of law professors hurts us. We’ve done quite well after running off one who was a royal pain in the butt.

            Simply, the point is this. Cain’s op-ed addressed a national sales tax. The time he mentions a VAT it is in the context of what has happened when VATs have been implemented. That is what he talks about. Period. That is what my story yesterday was about. Period.

            If you disagree with that assessment, do it in a diary. I’m not fighting that argument again today.

  • Tbone

    the market for bullcrap is deep on both ends of the political spectrum.

  • clintonformccain

    Politico asks the right question with today’s headline:

    Is Herman Cain Serious?

    In the article, Cain’s campaign manager admits that he doesn’t know who is coming on board as policy advisors.

    Cain has one paid staffer in New Hampshire: a retired federal worker from Pennsylvania who has his first paid political job after volunteering for McCain in 2008.

    I’m just an independent, so I don’t know what ya’ll party regulars think, but I was kinda hoping that the Republicans would field a serious candidate and a serious campaign to send Barack Hussein Obama back to Chicago. I’m going to be royally honked off if the Republicans go with amateur hour.like they did in Delware and Nevada Senate races.

    • streiff

      Cain is not one of them.

      • kinggold

        And don’t forget to show your work.

        • Aaron Gardner

          nt

          • kinggold

            Fat lot of good it did them.

          • streiff

            so I don’t see what point you’re trying to make.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Seriously, Cain has more in common with Angle and O’Donnell than Perry. Nice try though.

          • streiff

            agreed

          • kinggold

            My point is that a charisma deficit is one you can’t paper over with money.

            What’s Perry’s strategy for communicating his message when a large portion of the Republican electorate is well convinced that he can’t find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight, and resorts to ad hominem when backed into a corner?

          • streiff

            Perry has a lot more charisma than Romney and is probably equalled only by Cain. Debates aren’t his thing and debates really aren’t part of the primary.

          • kinggold

            Gallup’s image polling positive intensity among GOP voters.

            Herman Cain – +34.
            Mitt Romney – +15.
            Rick Perry – +4.

          • streiff

            polls change, but I guess you haven’t noticed that.

          • gekster

            Hillary was on top with 32% and McCain was next to last with 11%.
            So what’s you point.

          • thirstyboots

            n/t

          • Aaron Gardner

            Retail politics are what the man does best.

            You can go on badmouthing him all you want, you can go on thinking debate performances are all that matter, and you can go on making overreaching generalizations on this blog, but none of that makes Cain a serious person.

            Good day.

          • kinggold

            Somebody who can’t communicate a message on a large scale in this day and age can’t be president. Perry must improve his communication skills or perish under the glare of the spotlights.

            For the record, Cain is also renowned to be proficient on the trail. So’s Romney. I don’t see any particular advantage for Perry in that area.

          • streiff

            it is what passes for listening in an online conversation.

            Cain is very good on the trail. Perry is also very good. “Large scale” communications, however, has nothing to do with how you work a crowd, it has everything to do with 1) your money to buy air time for ads, 2) your skill working with editorial boards to get your message out, and 3) your organization of supporters.

            I don’t see how you can say that Perry, who is famous for his ability to engage in retail politics, is inferior to Romney in this. He’s not and to say otherwise simply misunderstands how he won the TX governorship three times.

            That is why this campaign, as it stands today, is a two man race. Only Romney and Perry have the money and organization to contest the race past December.

          • kinggold

            I don’t dispute the fact that he knows how to campaign and run his message… in Texas.

            Well, except for that silly 2010 primary where he was at least once placed in danger of a runoff from a Paulian 9/11 Truther.

          • streiff

            does Cain know how to run a campaign? Anywhere? There is no evidence of it.

            You are entitled to support any candidate you wish but you should at least treat the opposition seriously.

          • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

            ….what we clearly need is someone who couldn’t break out of third in his own primary in Georgia in his only run for office.

          • kinggold

            that a pure political neophyte didn’t do so hot in his first race.

            What’s more, if the Tea Party had existed in 2004, don’t even try to tell me that we wouldn’t have pushed Cain with all we had to unseat the anointed, moderate-leaning GOP candidate in the Georgia race. He was the Marco Rubio of that race.

            You’re not going to tell me that the same people who pushed Rubio wouldn’t have gone to the mat for this guy.

          • clintonformccain

            that the Beltway media is presenting Perry as a dunce is subconciously wrapped up in his heavy accent. Same thing with Haley Barbour.

            Part of it is that Perry has, to date, not mastered a full arsenal of sound byte quips for the national stage. I’ve not found the substance of his answers to be “stupid” at all.

          • thirstyboots

            And while his retail politics can work in a place like Texas – especially because a republican can win by default as long as he avoids major crossover voting – I’m extremely skeptical they can work with the national electorate.

            I do agree with you though: retail campaigning isn’t just that important nowadays especially in a national campaign and money can only do so much for you. And I suspect Perry’s fundraising is quickly drying up now that’s he’s polling in low double-digits and polls are showing he isn’t competitive in the general.

          • gekster

            Do you have something to show that, or you just spewing again.
            You said it, give some proof.

          • clintonformccain

            …he has gone against accepted conservative base dogma in refusing to reject Texas’ 10 year old law allowing children of illegal immigrants to pay standard tuition and attend Texas public colleges and universities.

            Defending his position was heretical in a Republican primary. It is probably not likely that anyone can win the Republican nomination without a promise to round up 12 million Mexicans, load them into buses, and throw them out the door on the other side of the border. The fact that we don’t have enough busses to carry 12 million people back to Mexico is irrelevant.

          • kinggold

            is the red-herring “deport them all” argument, as well as the contention that it’s a litmus test for the GOP nomination. The base certainly tolerated George W. Bush in 2000, who never once intimated that he’d deport everyone.

            What conservatives object to is the insinuation that they don’t have a heart because they don’t wish to subsidize education for the children of illegals, as well as the accusation that border security is an issue of “what somebody’s last name sounds like,” which is just a cute accusation of racism. No sale.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Now I understand…. you are just deranged.

          • kinggold

            What’s more out of place? My umbrage that Rick Perry considers border security a racial issue? Or your attempt to whitewash it, which defies the reality of his precipitous poll slide since he made that outrageous charge?

          • Aaron Gardner

            If you had a clue you wouldn’t be spouting off as you are.

          • kinggold

            I have no idea that Perry supports border security but considers a border fence unfeasible and would rather use Texas Rangers, National Guard, Border Patrol, and electronic surveillance to assist security efforts.

            I am also clueless about the idea that he would rather pay for the education of children of illegals instead of having them drain government resources, in order to make them productive citizens. All of this is what he himself said, so to contradict it is to call Perry a liar.

            He also said that Texas residents should pay in-state tuition “no matter what their last name sounds like.” That’s an oblique insinuation that others would deny in-state tuition based on race.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Such as yourself.

          • kinggold

            That’s how far his support numbers have fallen. Darn effective dog-whistle, eh?

          • Aaron Gardner

            Romney appreciates your assistance.

          • kinggold

            n/t

          • Aaron Gardner

            ahem.

          • streiff

            1. He is in favor of a fence in places like El Paso/Juarez, Laredo/Nuevo Laredo, Brownsville/Matamoros. He is against it in areas where there aren’t people.

            2. He isn’t advocating “paying for the education of illegals” he is for giving them in state tuition. This is a position that received near unanimous vote in the Texas Legislature (4 no votes) and has been upheld by the US Supreme Court. It is Texas’ money so I don’t see how it bothers anyone else.

            3. A good number of people who are concerned about immigration are racists. There. I said it. We saw this back in 2004/5 when immigration reform was heating up and it became very obvious that the followers of guys like Tancredo didn’t really care about a million or so illegal Irish and Poles showing up (these are real numbers, about 10 years ago the second largest Polish speaking city in the world was Chicago just like the second largest Korean speaking city is Los Angeles) in Chicago and Boston, their real concern was brown people, and maybe Asians, showing up. Perry probably shouldn’t have said it but as someone who has been watching this carefully for quite a while it is hard to say he’s wrong.

          • kinggold

            Good for you. I hope you’re proud of it.

          • thirstyboots

            The “if you don’t agree with me you don’t have a heart” stance is the problem, not his position about mass deportation – something no major candidate is supporting.

          • circlegranch

            and they labeled Perry the Jobs Governor.

            Why his slide in polls? Because our country has grown comfortable with a teleprompter president and polished lines. Anything beyond slick, rehearsed rhetoric is considered a negative. We don’t talk that way in our homes, families, jobs, friendships, yet we expect candidates that (usually) don’t know questions in advance to never miss a beat. He’s a common man with an uncommon connection to every day people; people that talk normally and casually and from the heart. That scares alot of elitist Republicans. Perry has slid because Fox and a host of weak kneed tea partiers and so-called conservative pundits have decided its Romney’s turn and while they’ll figure every non-conservative issue Romney brings, they are hung up on one or two about Perry they don’t like. To think that it was only a year ago we had courageous people holding townhall’s and demonstrations calling for revolution and an automatic primary for any Republican that would not adhere to strict constructionist ways. Now we’re debating between giving the job to a guy that ran to the left of Ted Kennedy at one point and a guy that has -0- experience that wants the top political job in the world. We’ve already got a guy with an obvious lack of applicable experience.

            What can Perry do? He just did a great thing today. Go to www/rickperry.org and watch his new jobs video and blast email it to everybody you know. If you’re disgusted with his debate performances but think he’s also gotten a bad shake from his opponents and the media, step up and offer to do something at his website to help get his message out.

          • rightwingmom52

            Do you even know any Tea Partiers?

            I’m pretty sure think the 3,000 who showed up last week at a tea party event for Cain in Bartlett, TN, aren’t Romney supporters. I can absolutely tell you that most, if not all, of the Tea Partiers here in Birmingham aren’t. I’ll try to verify that for you next Thursday at our meet and greet with Cain.

            We’ve become “weak-kneed” because we haven’t declared our whole-hearted support for Perry? So you don’t think we’re “courageous” anymore unless we agree with you? Sorry, but I hear that kind of talk from the Democrats all the time.

            For the record, I like Perry and have told everybody I talk to that his record is much more conservative than Romney’s (citing specific examples). I hope he has an exceptional performance at the debate. Same goes for all of the candidates. I’m not looking for any one of them to fail just so my favorites can rise. I’m looking for conservatism to win on the stage tonight, and in the long run, above all else.

          • streiff

            I’ll bet every candidate out there has Tea Party people involved. Cain has benefited from 1) Perry gaffes and 2) Palin not running.

            claiming that supporting any candidate, other than probably Huntsman, is insulting the Tea Party folks is silly

          • rightwingmom52

            I agree wholeheartedly that there are Tea Partiers who support each and every candidate, maybe even Huntsman, and to my dismay, Ron Paul. To call them suddenly weak-kneed or not courageous because they don’t support circlelgranch’s candidate or claim they’re all in the tank for Romney is not the way to go about convincing them to support one’s favorite, i.e., not a winning strategy. In my humble opinion, of course.

          • Scope

            Perry speaks in every day language that connects with the people. Romney speaks like he has a teleprompter buried in his head. Hey, now wait a minute, isn’t one of Obama’s missing? LOL

            Everyone just loves Herman Cain because he is so down to earth, and speaks to the common man, in a language they can understand. So it is endearing with Cain, but it makes Perry just a dumb cowboy.

            The difference is that Cain has learned the art of deflection, and the ability to not even answer the question at times, and to change the subject. He has learned fast talking 101. Perry has never adopted that approach.

        • streiff

          with an extensive fund raising network and not a single vote yet cast by any caucus or primary you can’t count them out.

          Only Romney and Perry have the finances to fight this out. The question is when the smaller candidates drop where do their voters go.

          • Scope

            that both Perry and Romney already have in place. To my knowledge, Cain doesn’t have much of any organization yet.

          • tailfins1959

            If Perry hasn’t been at a “candidate boot camp” during this lull, he is finished. So far, he as come off as a dunce. There’s potential in Perry, but he had better start showing it pretty darn quick.

          • streiff

            is going to help Romney or hurt Perry. When the air war starts in the first primary states all that is going to matter is ads. Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum, and Huntsman disappear then. Unless Cain raised a crap load of money or burns through his own cash he’s going to be out before February.

          • tailfins1959

            Obama could get re-elected if we are not careful. ANY of the declared GOP candidates understand spending has to be cut and can get us out of this economic downturn. Whomever the winner is, let’s not have him enter the general election as damaged goods. Any remark I make about a candidate is constructive criticism. Even the ones that don’t get the nomination are still part of our candidate bench.

            The accidental situation here in Massachusetts won’t last. The housing shortage drove people out and cushioned the housing bubble.

          • earlgrey

            nt.

          • tailfins1959

            It’s reasonably easy to find a job in Massachusetts because the housing shortage drove people out. The housing bubble was small and didn’t crush the economy. You don’t have to create jobs if you caused people to leave en mass (no pun intended) before the recession.

          • streiff

            an incumbent president is a very difficult candidate to beat.

          • cajungirl2012

            can’t get out soon enough for me. Sorry Santorum, Huntsman.

      • cajungirl2012

        Cain is refreshing, but he’s a political lightweight. The well–funded Obama machine would eat him alive.

        I like Perry and love his energy plan. He’s the only (conservative) Republican that might get a good portion of the Hispanic vote, which is a huge part of Obama’s strategy.

        I don’t trust Romney. His attacks on other Repubs are dishonest. Oh, and then there’s that charisma problem – he has NONE.

        • hermas42

          Deficits and jobs are the immediate problem. No one talks about deficits anymore and few about jobs.

          Tax reform is nice and very much needed, but takes time. It does not give an immediate kick start to the economy, so new jobs are created which will contribute a greater tax stream to help bring down the deficits. Of course spending cuts should be the primary focus for that. Energy, however, inicreasing energy production and reducing regulations, would provide an IMMEDIATE kick start. Only Perry has that focus. I don’t see anyone else have a prescription for immediate job increases.

  • Death_of_the_Donkey

    isn’t too good if you are making anywhere under $100k with a few deductions (say kids and/or house). On top of that, the idea that corporations will lower prices to reflect lower taxes immediately is either a sick joke or a complete misunderstanding of reality (in other words, the 9% sales tax would be on top of current prices AND state/local sales taxes).

    • hermas42

      the 9-9-9 plan is a killer for seniors and families making under $100K. Their tax liabilities would explode.

      Also, no one talks about what would replace the payroll tax. What is going to finance current and future social security liabilities. My guess is, that there would be another 10-20% individual “contribution” to replace the payroll tax to finance retirement.

      • streiff

        9% extra on milk, bread, heating oil, gasoline, etc. I’ll sign up for it.

        The payroll tax elimination begs the question of how social security and medicare are going to be dealt with and whether the mandatory contribution to a privately held retirement fund would be in addition to the 9% income tax or part of it.

        • izoneguy

          That is just re-arranging the deck chairs.
          I don’t drive a lot – maybe 15 gallons a week.
          Still at $3.00 a gallon that is $45.00 per week.
          So add 9% to $45 – new total = $49.05
          Increase $4.05 per week x 52 week = $210.60 per year increase.
          How about we reduce the overall tax rates and make gas more
          affordable?
          Getting gas back down to even $2.50 a gallon would save me $390 per year.
          Perry’s plan can get implemented immediately.
          Cain will have a long hard road with 999.
          I would rather he started at 333 – you know nothing ever gets
          smaller once DC gets a hold of it.

  • notpropagandized

    and why does he/she keep showing up determined to undermine Herman Cain? Is it a public service? Is it to benefit Romney? Or another candidate? It seems directed more toward tearing down Cain as opposed to objective analysis.

    Are we not concerned about Dems raising taxes anyway they can and why would a national sales tax make it any easier for Dems to Do it?

    My concern for HermanCain and my support for him is that he’s really in the race to deliver it to Romney and maybe/maybenot get a VP out of it. Anybody got inside info on this?

    • streiff

      streiff
      Registered: 7 years, 4 months

      as you can see I’m not “showing up”, I live here.

      • notpropagandized

        Yes, I assumed you lived here, but the questions are valid in the debate. You appear to have a long knife out for HermanCain. Why, and to what end?

        As far as who I am, simply an honest observer, willing to disclose preferences and motivations in analysis and expressing opinion.

  • Darin_H

    I doubt it (but I am creeping up on 7 years here)

    And to be on topic, “NO NEW TAXES”

    “God put the Republican Party on earth to cut taxes. If they don’t do that, they have no useful function.” – Robert Novak

    • SoFiMil

      .

    • streiff

      Darin_H
      Registered: 7 years, 0 months

      just fyi
      Red = moderator
      Green = front pager

      • Darin_H

        I need a new color for 5+ years (I’d settle for a real gold watch though)… maybe brown for “older than online dirt”, heh.

        I just keep hanging around hoping someone will promote me and it’ll be a lesson of the Peter Principle :)

        • Christine (Trelaina)

          -nt-

          • streiff

            Christine (Trelaina)
            Registered: 6 years, 2 months

          • Christine (Trelaina)

            I didn’t realize I had passed the 6 year mark. Nice!

  • Scope

    From an article I read some weeks ago, can’t find it now, the author claimed that Cain does not listen to or even have many if any advisers. He is his entire campaign, and he runs it as he chooses. He believes that selling himself is what will make him a winner. So that may answer the question as to who Cain’s advisers are.

    So many want to say that Cain will surround himself with good people as president. What I wonder is if Cain wouldn’t be a micro-manager, deciding and directing from the Oval Office, based on just his common sense. Isn’t that like the boss that stands over your shoulder, and watches you just in case you might screw up?

    I remember reading a story about Cain, and when he took over Godfather’s, which was going under. He told an account to find 20% in cuts. The accountant told him that it couldn’t be done without consequences. Cain fired that account, and got a new one that found the 20% in cuts. It resulted in many lost jobs, and many store closings.

    There is also another story out there that with the information that has been released on the finances of Godfather’s, it really isn’t as profitable as Cain would have you believe. Much of the information has been sealed.

    • tyman

      about Cain being a micro manager.

      The CEO relationship to a company is not the same as the POTUS, and it may be hard to give that up. I think that’s why Herb is in la-la land about 9-9-9…talking about how he would tell Congress to craft the legislation.

      We’ve had a megalomaniac in charge of The White House for too long and I’d rather not have another one, even if he isn’t a Marxist.

      • izoneguy

        The executive know it all types.

        You had to do things their way or it was the highway.

        Herman Cain will be very frustrated if he is actually elected.

        • onemovoter

          www.theothermccain.com came across the video and said that they will be asking the Cain campaign of the video story.

          http://theothermccain.com/2011/10/17/howdy-thank-you-erick/

          It’s at the bottom of the story. The rest of it is about Perry’s introduction at Redstate and that being a diss to Iowa. Robert Stacy McCain has been a positive supporter of Cain and derisive of Perry.

  • hermas42

    “Mr. Lowrie is an accountant by training and is currently a ?wealth manager? employed by Wells Fargo ”

    Well, that explains it. Mr. Buffet, Wells Fargo’s, Goldman Sachs’, etc, etc etc and all other “wealth” clients thank Herman Cain. Their tax rate is going to diminish even more.

    Full disclosure, I like Herman Cain and used to support him, until I examined his 9-9-9 plan more closely. It’s a trojan horse for higher taxes, now for many, all in the future.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah I know it’s a transition plan. However, it depends on a whole lot of hope and change for that to happen. Haven’t we all had enough of hope and change?

  • Rhampton

    It’s a mistake for Cain not to reveal his advisors – it will only engender
    suspicion.

    • streiff

      this is a foot shot

      • Locked and Loaded

        *naughty tyrannosaurus

  • unclefred

    Before I get called on the carpet about using the terms “trashing Cain”, associating 9-9-9 with SimCity (one of my old favorites byw) is not conducive to real and thoughtful discussion. You can call it a conversations starter, but it is low ball.

    Cain has issues surrounding his lack of an organization and money. Perhaps he’ll get them fixed in time perhaps not. 9-9-9 is actually a pretty good plan, much better than the current tax code. As others have said it may need tweaking to be a 5-15-5 plain or something, but it focuses attention to the current tax code and the grave problems that stem from it. There is no doubt that we as a nation are far better off with a very few flat taxes that fall on everyone, than a byzantine and opaque tax code that allows politicians to sell favors. Extrapolations of what 9-9-9 might become are red herrings, because we already have something that is at least as bad as anything 9-9-9 might morph into over the next decades, and it is much harder to initially morph flat taxes.

    Cain has stated that he will publish the calculations and assumptions behind the plan for evaluation. Until he does detailed analysis is not possible. One reason is that we need to see the assumptions about how product pricing is effected by the plan. Cain maintains that by eliminating the cost of embedded taxes from products the prices will fall and substantially mitigate the impact of the sales tax on most products. I don’t know if this is correct and it is incumbent on Cain to publish the information so it can be evaluated.

    Perry did not lose the mantle of “the guy other than Romney” by virtue of bad debate performances. He lost it because of policy positions that are way out of touch with Republican primary voters. Until he effectively addresses that he is not likely to get them back. He and his supporters can ignore it, but the people whose votes he needs are proving to be not so inclined.

    • streiff

      instead of your post mortem on the 2012 campaign when not a single vote has been cast.

      Your belief that this magical new tax will not turn out like all other taxes is charming in a Santa-Claus-tooth-fairy type of way.

      btw the technical term for what you’re describing, tossing out a flashy slogan with no data to back it up is “pig in the poke.”

    • nepanyrush

      It is “debatable” (see what I did there?) that Perry did not lose his position because of bad debate performances but because of policy positions that were out of touch with Republican primary voters. For me, it was clearly the debates.

      There were a few Perry policies that I did not like, but Perry’s horrible debate performances moved me out of his camp. It became clear that (1) Obama will completely overwhelm Perry, (2) Perry will not be able to articulate Obama’s horrible governance in any credible way; and (3) Perry’s inarticulateness will be an embarrasement. His poor word choice, inabiity to even hit softballs, and deer-in-the-headlights response when confronted would prove too exasperating for me and also feed into the view perpetrated by liberals that Republicans are dumb. I had no idea he was this bad at debates, but for me it was the main factor.

    • wacowboy

      If Perry is way out of touch on issues, what are they? The only issue anyone mentions is immigration. And everyone who mentions it doesn’t seem to have a grasp on his position and the reality of the situation.

      and I’d venture to say that Perry is among the strongest and most common-sense of the candidates on immigration. Whose position is better?

  • goformitt

    have been questioned. Most all of his campaign contributions are from Texas and most are from big donors who are now maxed out. I’m new here and no expert, but my strong suspicion is he will not see another such profitable month.

    From where I sit (in central Iowa) Cain’s popularity is mostly an Anybody But Romney response that I am almost positive will collapse when details (or misinformation, if you want) about his tax plan are brought to light.

    I also believe Ron Paul will announce an independent run here shortly – as soon as it becomes painfully obvious to all that Romney has the GOP race locked up, which we are probably 2-3 weeks away from.

    • Aaron Gardner

      I’ll be ignoring them.

    • acat

      seriously, go for mitt..

      Let’s pick the two easiest points.

      First, Mitt’s never broken 1/3 support. You’d think with Barbour and Pawlenty and Daniels and Bachmann and Perry collapsing, and Palin and Christie declining, *some* of those supporters would have looked around and said “Yeah, Romney”. Not many did.

      Second, the first *ballots* won’t be cast until December at the earliest, and last time I checked that’s more than 2 or 3 weeks away. Romney can’t lock up jack in that time frame.

      Bonus for you. Ron Paul will likely do about the same in 2012 as he did in 1988. He’s still bat-{guano} crazy and won’t get traction.

      Mew

  • goformitt

    I’ve come to Romney reluctantly – I know he has flaws as a candidate. But he has what I think is most important – an intellectual understanding of the way the world works.

    Populists like Cain and Perry remind me too much of Bush – anti-intellectual, anti-science – anti-honesty really. I know their words, their policies and positions are designed to attract votes rather than describe a principled stance on governance. I think we’ve seen enough of populist politics.

    The details of Perry’s fund raising were not referenced because they are easily found with a simple search. Here – I just found this for example:
    www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/15/rick-perry-fundraising-172-million-dollars- third-quarter_n_1012649.html

    As far as Ron Paul goes – I don’t think it hurts his or his supporters feelings if you think they are crazy. He has used his GOP membership to get his face in front of people, in the polls and debates, but will peel off for an Independent bid soon. The GOP was just a convenient launching pad.

    • Scope

      is that Ron Paul has tried to use and abuse the Republican party. It hasn’t worked at all. A majority of Republicans have rejected crazy uncle Ron Paul. He’s already tried the Libertarian party with no success, and they also see him as crazy old Ron Paul. So, he insists that Americans make him the president, when 3 times they have told him no. Thank you God, this is the last election we will ever have to see his face, hear his screetching voice, and to have to put up with his supporters. Thankfully, old Ronnie will finally be relegated to the rocking chair on his front porch in Texas, and not a minute too soon.

  • goformitt

    is that Republican voters are not enthusiastic about their choices. I’m guessing Paul sees this election cycle as the one that will finally provide his ideas and himself with a lot of air-time.

    With an Ind. run, he will remain a national force for another year – more than the rest will be able to say. His roll will be pivotal in the national election. I’m not sure he can resist that.

    And after all, there are days I wouldn’t mind seeing prostitutes and heroin legal :-)

    I just wish someone would explain to Michelle that her endlessly circling the state embarrassing herself isn’t going to get her anywhere. Time to head for home Michelle.

  • Locked and Loaded

    Clearly you speak of Republicans in the third person, so don’t be trying to sow discord by letting loose the huffington compost you’ve swallowed. Just get on back and stay.

  • Locked and Loaded

    Clearly you speak of Republicans in the third person, so don’t be trying to sow discord by letting loose the huffington compost you’ve swallowed. Just get on back and stay.

  • bk

    Ignore for a moment any Constitutional questions and how Dems could use it to backdoor tax increases. Let’s just look at some of what Herman Cain has said about it, based on what I’ve read.

    Tax increase on the poor: Well we can set up something that gives some sort of waivers….

    Charitable deductions: Yeah we can keep these in place so as to not get the 9% applied to those.

    The appeal of the 9-9-9 plan is its simplicity. You can fairly argue that it would (should) cut prices, and that would offset all or most of the sales tax increases. But then when you turn around and start piling in loopholes, we’re right back where started. Cain’s “everything should fit on 3 pages” would become a 999 page 9-9-9 bill by the time Congress was done with it.

    THAT is the concern I have. If he were to say NO EXCEPTIONS and put on his asbestos suit for all the whining and attacks that would follow, I’d feel better about it.