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Five Great Reasons Why Personhood Will End Abortion

From the diaries by Erick

It was Pope John Paul II’s great wish that the Church would learn to “breathe with both lungs.”

I couldn’t help but notice the sturm-und-drang over the national personhood movement, most especially by Steve Ertelt in the following post.  Arguments against are legion:  it bleeds cash and resources, it’s not politically viable, and worst of all, it deprives Republicans the chance to elect a pro-life president with a nominally pro-life Congress.

Of course, were this even remotely true, abortion would have ended with the election of George W. Bush, and the Republican Congress would have passed a series of bills defunding Planned Parenthood, mandating parental notification and consent laws, passing a series of fetal pain bills, forcing abortion clinics to meet the basic standards of medical care, and perhaps even joined hands with the personhood movement and passed a bill recognizing the basic right to exist — ultimately thrusting the decision into the hands of a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court and ending abortion once and for all.

One small problem.  This never happened.

In fact, not only did it not happen, but the partisan majority was never a pro-life majority.  Even the softballs failed to manage much more than tacit recognition from U.S. House leadership, as items such as the Pence Amendment which would have defunded Planned Parenthood – the nation’s largest abortion chain — only managed to garner 183 votes.

Since 1973, the pro-life movement has fractured time and time again based on hairline differences of opinion.  One difference marks the movement more than anything else.  Either one believes that any legislation that ends abortion is a net positive (the “greater good” argument), or one believes that every human being must be saved, and that any laws creating a maze that — should they be navigated — end with the death of a child are a net negative (the “common good” argument).

I’ll set aside the very deep theological arguments pro- and con- between the two positions.  Needless to say, rather than working as counterparts, or at the very least agreeing to “do no harm” to the other wing, the pro-life movement’s internecine warfare has raged almost as fiercely as the struggle to end abortion itself.

What has unfortunately happened over the course of almost four decades is that many Americans who are nominally pro-life have become discouraged from participating in the movement, as Ertelt accurately depicts.  It’s a long slog, the resources are thin, and precious resources are often spent in rearguard actions rather than ending the tragedy of abortion.

In 2008, I was first introduced to the personhood movement.  I had political involvement in Colorado in 2006 (successfully running then-Rep. Marilyn Musgrave’s re-election campaign) and knew many of the players in the state.  Instantly, I threw in my support behind the movement, without hesitation or reserve.

Why?  Because the argument for personhood was so undeniably true.  In short, every human being has the basic human right to exist.  And further, all human beings deserve the protection of our laws.

That’s personhood — and it’s that language that has carried into over 30 states across the country in the form of either legislation or constitutional amendments.  What’s more, all hopes are hung on the actual language of the now-entrenched Roe v. Wade, in which Justice Blackmun famously emphasized:

The appellee and certain amici [pro-lifers] argue that the fetus is a ‘person’ within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant’s case, of course, collapses, for the fetus’ right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment.

What has happened in only a few short years is precisely as Ertelt and others have described it.  Energized by the new approach, thousands of pro-lifers have rallied to the battle standards.  Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been poured into the effort.  Old stalwarts who fell away either from infighting or disillusionment have come back to a movement they loved so dearly in the ’70s and ’80s.

This is the miracle of personhood.

Detractors within the pro-life movement are certainly not “anti-personhood” by any definition.  I believe many of them to see a worthwhile goal in personhood, but heavily invested both in the acrimony of previous infighting as well as the time and energy invested in pursuing incrementalist legislation.  This is all well and good — and one can tell the difference between a sincere disagreement and a D.C. lobbyist or lawyer whose livelihood depends on the wrong strategy.

Let me give you five good reasons why personhood is the right strategy for the upcoming decade:

1.  Personhood is bringing new people into the pro-life movement. Period.  It’s no secret that many evangelicals and Catholics view abortion through the eyes of faith.  Such a view encourages us to look at abortion as an attack on the human family — the Body of Christ.  For this, Christians seek the common good of all those members, and will not sacrifice a single one to gain a greater goal.  That sort of ethic — common to any member of America’s military or emergency personnel — is easily identifiable, and strikes deep in the heart of the souls of those disillusioned with what are perceived to be half measures.

2.  Personhood is bringing new money into the pro-life movement. When you hear the phrase “scarce resources” bantered about, it’s from the perspective that pro-lifers are old, dying, with pensions and savings accounts being dwindled away every day.  That sort of defeatism (and it is defeatism) is precisely what has driven away any donor from any organization, regardless of the cause.  With personhood, there is a battle plan and a light at the end of the tunnel…

3.  Who believes personhood is the right strategy?  Planned Parenthood. In 2008, and in Colorado alone, Planned Parenthood committed over $10 million towards defeating the Colorado Personhood Amendment.  In 2010, they spent over $3 million doing the same.  $3 million multiplied by 30 efforts across the country puts Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry out of business in months — not years.

4.  Personhood works in tandem with every pro-life strategy embarked upon over the last four decades. This is where we get to the “breathing with both lungs” argument — there is no threat to other efforts by engaging communities in personhood, other than the traditional resistance to new ideas.

5.  One in three Americans is already on the side of Personhood. Marketers would argue that the idea is “pre-sold” to the American public.  What’s more, certain states stand a better chance than Colorado (arguably a battleground state if there ever was one) in passing personhood legislation and state amendments.  All it takes is for one state to pass personhood… and the likelihood of a 5-4 decision in the U.S. Supreme Court upholding personhood, though a coin flip, is altogether better than never taking the chance at all.

I happen to consider Ken Buck a friend, though by acquaintance and a few dozen hours campaigning in and around Weld and Larimer Counties.  Not being on the inside of his campaign for U.S. Senate but cheering as loudly as I could from Virginia, I haven’t the foggiest idea why Buck turned away from his endorsement of personhood.

But the argument that personhood tanked Buck’s campaign?  Specious at best.  In fact, the converse may very well be true.  Modern polling shows that pro-lifers care passionately about their issue, and to the exclusion of many others.  Did personhood proponents vote for Amendment 62 and leave the checkbox next to Ken Buck blank?  Possibly.  Was the abortion lobby going to attack Ken Buck on his impeccable pro-life credentials?  Absolutely.  Why did the campaign advisors argued that Buck should come down from his principled position — a position embraced by 30% of the Colorado electorate — and muddy the waters?

That’s above my pay grade.  And probably above all outside commentators’ pay grades as well.  Still, the simplest answer being the easiest is that, should Buck have held fast in the best environment for conservatives since the 1994 Republican Revolution — Buck may very well have been selecting drapes for his new offices in Washington right now.

Pro-lifers should determine for themselves the worthiness of the personhood movement, not based on what our friends within the movement would tell you — but on the reaction of those whose livelihoods and careers are based around killing children in the womb.  It’s no secret that Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry attempted to grab literally millions of dollars from the public purse during the 2010 lame duck session.  There’s a reason for that.  Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry could not survive without it.  They know, as we do, that resources are limited everywhere.  The further they are stretched on as many fronts as possible, the easier it is to dismantle the machinery of abortion on demand.

Pro-lifers such as Steve Ertelt have devoted countless hours to the cause, and all in their own ways.  I suggest, if you want to learn more, visit those who have supported the movement for years such as Judie Brown at American Life League (FULL DISCLOSURE: I work for ALL… but there truly is no better resource).  If you feel encouraged enough to find out what all the excitement is about, find a state initiative through Personhood USA and get moving.

Find others, talk about abortion, let people know where you stand, and ask questions about what we value as a country and as a society.  Do *all* human beings have the basic right to exist?  Or not?

If after all of that you’re still not convinced… well, sign up for Life News and keep a great resource going.  But above all else, find a way to get involved.

Thousands of lives are counting on your ‘yes’ — and we need both lungs to keep moving.

COMMENTS

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Certainly not here in Colorado. But feel free to keep putting it on the ballot and electing Democrats.

    • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

      …and so long as the pro-abortion lobby keeps spending millions defeating these amendments and bills, so much the better. Will it pass in Colorado? I know that the personhood movement doesn’t have the deep pockets of Gill, Stryker, and Polis behind them..

      Maybe if it were an even fight? But I’m a realist — women’s suffrage wasn’t decided on one go either, nor was ending Jim Crow or Massive Resistance. It’s a long fight and a conversation worth having — so let’s have it.

      • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

        thank you for your post, I wouldn’t have known anything about the personhood movement without it. It will be a long road, but so is saving the country.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        It appears Colorado will continue to suffer from self-righteous single-issue voters that don’t understand politics. Social issues as a primary focus just doesn’t fly here. Just ask Marilyn Musgrave.

        • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

          …or ask Cory Gardner. Bet that stung, didn’t it?

          • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

            Those that actually lived through the last election here know better.

          • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

            Just put the numbers together six months from now — you’ll see what the rest of the country is seeing in Colorado.

          • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

            Democrats elected everywhere, because right to lifers were to proud to think practically.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            You can screw up their state. I don’t know what your issue is with Gardner. Maybe you’re a King fan.

          • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

            …took care of Betsy well enough, didn’t she?

            I bet there are some Dems in ’06 that wished I’d have stayed in VA. No worries — proud to have sent Musgrave back for another term.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Last time I checked, anyway.

            Musgrave’s last term was a disaster. She became equally hated by both sides, giving Markey an easy win. I know that, because I was making phone calls for her during that election. Yeah, I live in CO-4. Yeah, I’ve met and talked with Cory.

          • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

            …I know. I’ve met him on several occasions.

            Sorry to hear Musgrave’s last term was a disaster. I know there was a need to do better community outreach and stuff. Grassroots campaigning was a difficult concept to express… I was hoping it would stay together when I left in ’06. Bummer.

            Still, very glad to see Cory won. Bummed to see Ken lost. I hope he sticks around — he’d be a great candidate for statewide office IMO.

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics
          • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

            Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, eh? :)

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            First of all, to the OP, what a fantastic article. I consider myself to be fairly informed, and had never heard of Personhood before . . . I suppose I wasn’t as informed as I thought. Very interesting read.

            As for the rest of the discussion, I am really bewildered and disappointed. It seems to me that “personhood” boils the issue down to what is actually at stake with abortion. That is: is a conceived fetus a human being or not? Why not have that debate?

            In particular, this argument by NightTwister is particularly troubling to me:

            Many that are pro-life are troubled by the amendment, both by the negative election consequences, and the legitimate concerns about many commonly used forms of birth control.

            So the question is really, does the birth control method you are using destroy human life or not? Honestly, if you are truly anti abortion and pro life on principle, you cannot support the use of the pill as a means of birth control. For those who missed the sleight of hand:

            [. . .]it is very important that we all have a correct understanding of the key biological terms related to pregnancy. The following definitions have been accept by major medical texts for decades.

            ‘Conception’ refers to the moment at which the sperm penetrates and fertilises the ovum to form a viable zygote. It does not refer to the process of implantation of the newly created human embryo, which is a separate event, occurring about 7-8 day

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            A dissenting point-of-view means I’m not having an open and honest debate.

            And btw, my statement about birth control was how many pro-life people view the issue. I said nothing about my own personal position on the matter.

            It would appear that your idea of debate is a cheerleading section.

            ….heading back under my rock

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Buddy, for real, I am certain I am not the only one sick and tired of the tired old meme “I’m personally super-duper ultra pro life but I don’t want to impose my views on others!!!” I mean really . . . if your own personal position on the matter is different than the one you are preaching in this discussion, how does that make you different from the many democrats who claim to be “personally” pro life but “politically” pro abortion?

            The “many” pro life people who might not know exactly what ‘the pill’ does or how it works probably are badly in need of someone to explain it to them rather than someone who will do anything not to talk about it.

            I can’t see the benefit in trashing a principled movement the way you have in this discussion.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I knew I’d be called pro-choice eventually.

            Being opposed to pursing the personhood movement does not make me pro-choice, either personally or politically.

            It’s quite simply a bad strategy and will set the pro-life movement back. I’m opposed to that strategy.

          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            The idea that personhood is not worthy of pursuing is nonsense. It is fighting the argument in the proper venue, the court started this crap, where it has started, it must be defeated.

            You are completely shut off from the idea, which is fine, but your little quest to not pursue personhood and to fight against it is very strange and self-destructive. You are surprised when someone out-argues you, makes more sense than you, and then considers you pro-choice. Not a real great position to be in.

            Oh, never mind, just figured out the acid.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Whatever it was.

          • littlehouse18

            I’m new to this, but it seems that this personhood movement is simply explaining to people why pro-lifers want to outlaw abortion at any stage.

            What are the other considerations? Why would it create increased antipathy to pro-life arguments?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’ve stated my reasons pretty clearly, but will summarize.

            1. The perssonhood issue at this time is divisive, even among those that are pro-life.

            2. Candidates have been forced to take a position on this issue, or refuse to answer which to certain groups is the same thing as a negative response.

            3. Due to 1 and 2, good candidates have lost elections they might have otherwise won.

            4. The personhood issue, imo, takes money and resources from other worthy pro-life efforts, and because it is so divisive it turns people away that might otherwise be sympathetic or those that are onthe fence.

            I believe there are better ways to move forward in the pro-life fight. I believe personhood harms, not helps that effort.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            This refers to the MORNING AFTER PILL and not to the HORMONAL BIRTH CONTROL PILL . . . which prevents ovulation. Also not to be confused with PLAN B or RU486 ABORTION PILL.

          • wonkish1

            Didn’t sound right when I read that post. I guessed this was the issue, but wasn’t sure. Thanks for pointing that out.

          • Uma Richie

            The potential exists for breakthrough ovulation in women who use BCPs. The BCP’s secondary mechanism is to increase cervical mucous to prevent sperm from getting anywhere near the egg. The tertiary mechanism is to prevent the uterine lining from allowing the new person from implanting if the first two mechanisms fail. And of course, some lucky little zygotes are able to implant themselves despite it all.

            I think it is medical malpractice for women not to be informed of this when they receive a prescription for the Pill. I also think that women being prescribed the Pill should be tested annually for breakthrough ovulation so they can make an informed decision about how well the drug is working for them.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Didn’t know that, then the article I cited may have in fact been about the hormonal BCP after all.

            Thanks for the note.

          • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

            Principled activism does not equal shooting yourself in the foot.

          • AceInTX

            which is how they justified claiming rights endowed by a creator for themselves…while denying the same rights to chattel slaves…

            It’s how they could go to church each Sunday and believe in their piety even as the oppressed and destroyed the lives of their slaves and slave families…

            It’s what allows people today to take the cowardly way out on this issue and say “I’m personally opposed to abortion but I support a woman’s right to choose”

            TEACH people that we’re talking about PEOPLE here and not just blobs of tissue…and the ground shifts in our direction.

            BTW….I’ve turned several folks around on this issue when they say “I’m personally opposed to abortion but I support a woman’s right to choose” by asking them…why are they “Personally Opposed?”

            by asking that question…if they earnestly believe what they are saying…rather than saying it to deflect the discussion…they are forced to acknowledge their opposition is because they believe the target of abortion is a child….then the question becomes…if it is a child…shouldn’t we protect the child….

            at that point I drop it and move onto another discussion…let them figure it out for themselves…

            I’ve had people come back and thank me for making them think about this and helping them to think it through…

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            Just call them Juden instead of human beings. That washes the blood right off Lady McBeth’s grubby, Lexus Liberal hands in a jiffy.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          I voted for it the past two times it was on the ballot. I will not vote for it again. It only encourages this behavior.

        • Right Reason

          It’s all strategy, no principle. I picture them as underemployed marketing execs. “You see what we really need in a candidate is a 34-50 year old guy who’s part white, part hispanic, and part indian; a nice head of reddish, brownish, blackish, greyish hair. He should have a wife, part asian, part black, part arab with a college degree – but she still likes to cook. He need 2 kids; one boy, one girl,and a dog; a golden retriever, collie, labrador, poodle, scotty, spaniel mix. THAT should cover all the demographics!

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Next I’ll be told I’m pro-choice.

          • Right Reason

            Reasoned argument and discourse is just too much to expect, I suppose. I was referring to your argument. It decidedly implies the “electability” strategy. You know, the one that brought us Bob Dole, John McCain, The a** kickings of 2006 and 2008? Let’s try standing on principle and see where that gets us, hmmm?! We tried it your way enough times already.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            This diary is about a single issue that is incredibly divisive and has harmed pro-life candidates and the pro-life cause. This has nothing to do with supporting moderate candidates,

          • Right Reason

            By all means, let’s stick with candidates who avoid all of these “divisive issues”, like immigration and affirmative action and the welfare state and a bankrupt Social Security and Medicare system. Then, when they get into office, they can concentrate on the important stuff, like naming buildings and declaring National Frozen Food week.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            How about we don’t force candidates to support these divisive issues that encourage more democrats to come out and ensure defeat for our candidates? Are you telling me a candidate cannot be truly pro-life unless they support a personhood amendment? Heck, I’ve already been called pro-choice in this thread, so it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what you’re saying.

          • Right Reason

            I don’t see anyone forcing candidates to support this issue. You’re saying the candidates should avoid it because it’s divisive. What if the candidate DOES support it? Do they avoid it to avoid controversy? You’re urging candidates to avoid controversy to get elected. I’m saying the candidates who always avoid controversy aren’t the ones we WANT getting elected. We need to be who we are as people, as candidates, and as a party. Anything else is lying to get elected, and that’s what Democrats do.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Candidates aren’t really given a choice to avoid it.

          • Right Reason

            . . .regarding the political short-sightedness of such a strategy. However, I stand by my remarks with regard to our candidates. If we cannot win being who we are, then we cannot win.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Stating “pro-life” or “pro-choice” should be sufficient to determine where a candidate stands on that issue.

          • Right Reason

            Mario Cuomo would have told you he was pro-life – personally – but he didn’t think he could impose his view on others. What about rape or incest? If you allow those exceptions, are you still pro-life?

            I think a position on this issue needs to be elaborated.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Forcing candidates to take a position on personhood in Colorado is a lose-lose proposition. That’s really as far as I care to go on this. Anything more is beyond the intended scope of this diary.

          • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

            It’s a local thing. Personhood may work in other states, but not here. The demographics just don’t support it, and probably never will.

          • Superheater

            By all means, let

          • Right Reason

            YES or NO
            Do you support the personhood movement and do you think the party should?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • Right Reason

            So, if you don’t mind elaborating, what exactly is your position on abortion?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I believe abortion should be illegal in all cases except when the woman’s life is imminent danger. Even in this case (I had a doctor explain this to me), they don’t actually perform an abortion. Sometimes, the fetus aborts during the process of saving the mother’s life.

          • Right Reason

            What should the law be regarding abortion?

            Your personal position is exactly mine, incidentally.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • Right Reason

            As I said in the reply above, Mario Cuomo was “personally pro-life.”

            So I guess it all comes down to a disagreement on tactics.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            You said “my position” which for many means their personal belief versus what they believe the law should be. Also, “health/life of the mother” is a fig leaf used by abortionists to justify abortion on demand?

            In the very rare case that a pregnant woman’s life is in danger because of her pregnancy the answer isn’t abortion. There are many other ways, including premature delivery or surgical extraction, making every attempt to save the baby’s life at the same time. That is a FAR CRY from abortion.

            Incidentally, the only principled position on this is that abortion should be illegal, period. Abortion being reckless or intentional causation of the death or destruction of a human embryo or fetus.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I stated pretty much what you did about when the life of the mother is in danger.

            NO WHERE in my comment did I say anything about the health of the mother.

            If you continue down this road I can only come to the conclusion that you are intentionally trying to misrepresent my position. In any case, I’m done with you.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Okay I re-read your comment and admit, you did say exactly that. My apologies.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • wonkish1

            Just coming in as for a quick Devil’s Advocate question that I’m just curious about.

            The personhood amendment is a ballot initiative. A GOP candidate is seeking elected office. Neither really need anything from the other to succeed.

            So, why is it necessary to even know what a GOP candidates position is on the ballot initiative? Also why is it even important to know what a particular candidate’s positions are on condoms, birth control, etc.?

            Why isn’t it enough to just have someone that is clearly pro life running?

            I mean I don’t see the fiscal conservatives asking candidates to detail their ideal tax rates for each bracket nor detail exactly what age people should be allowed to start taking social security or Medicare as a condition for them voting for the candidate.

            Does it really do your cause that much good, to force very specific answers on issues as a condition on voting for them? Questions that even divide your movement not just the electorate!

            I ask this purely because I’m interested in hearing the answer, not to cause a stir or anything.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            One of the questions is whether the candidate supports the amendment. If the candidate answers negatively, or refuses to answer, the CRTL makes it their mission to defeat the candidate, even solidly pro-life Republican candidates.

          • wonkish1

            Can someone please offer a good explanation for my question above.

          • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

            CRTL makes it an issue in the primary. If a candidate doesn’t support personhood, it is used against them so they can’t win the nomination. It would be best if a candidate could just say “I’m pro-life” and not have to take a position on ballot issues.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • wonkish1

            What is the reasoning behind forcing candidates to detail every nitty gritty detail they in regards to their positions about abortion, birth control, condoms,…the amendment(which since its a ballot measure has nothing to with his or her candidacy)?

            Explain to me the rationale. I’m curious because I can’t think of one.

          • Aaron Gardner

            What I replied to was your assertion that a simple “I am Pro-Life” statement should be enough. Bart Stupak is a case study on why that approach doesn’t work.

          • wonkish1

            But couldn’t an elected official just violate the answers on a questionnaire?

          • Aaron Gardner
          • wonkish1

            How is that different from someone that says he is pro life and then goes against it?

          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            We defeated Stupak.

          • wonkish1

            What is the value of asking pro life politicians their opinion on every little thing.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • wonkish1

            Clearly the answer I received on the previous question had received brought the situation full circle. Something I didnt’ want. I actually do want to understand the rationales for the questionnaire and not a rationale that gets turned around right away either.

            Maybe you can just help me out here with a good explanation on this topic, one that gets me to go, “Okay, I can see how that would be useful to use those because of x.”

          • Aaron Gardner

            Not sure what you are looking for.

          • wonkish1

            Okay,

            I asked what the point was for asking very detailed questions about a candidates pro life stance?

            You replied that Bart Stupak was an example of someone who said he was pro life, but be turned his back on it. Not a direct answer, but I get what your saying and its a good point.

            I then asked couldn’t someone that answered the questionnaire just turn their back on it, too?
            You said, “Yes if they only wanted to have 1 term.”
            Also a fair point.

            I then asked, so what is the difference between someone going against the questionnaire and going against a pro life stance?
            Admittedly someone else answered that it doesn’t we defeated Stupak(actually he retired when he realized he couldn’t win, but same thing).

            So, are you saying that you disagree with the other poster about that their isn’t a difference between someone that violates a questionnaire and someone that violates their pro life beliefs?

            Or are you in agreement that both would cause swift retribution at the polls?

          • Aaron Gardner

            If a politician goes on record with a position and then doesn’t follow through with that position, he has broken the trust between the represented and the representative.

            I don’t care if it’s a questionaire he answered or his positions as stated on his campaign site, if he betrays the position he should suffer the consequences.

          • wonkish1

            So, then maybe you can help me figure out what the point would be in forcing a candidate to answer a very detailed questionnaire? I’m really, really struggling to understand the logic in it.

            Wouldn’t simply a contract, pledge, or something similar achieve the same effect. Why is it that we need to force answers on things that will be used as ammunition in a political fight?

            If the goal is to get someone to vote pro life and be held accountable if they don’t, I guess I’m really, really struggling to understand the point in forcing a questionnaire when it appears based on you’re responses to not help in achieving that goal.

          • wonkish1

            Because I really do want to hear an a good rationale for the questionnaires.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Your lack of comprehension of my answer is not evidence of me not thinking through my position.

            Also, I work for a living, so I won’t be held to some schedule by you with regard to my comments. So you can take your assumption and cram it.

          • wonkish1

            To be mean or anything. That’s not my purpose in this. I’m sure there is a good reason for your support in the questionnaires.

            You stated that the purpose of the questionnaires is so that we can hold accountable our elected officials and prevent another Stupak. Then you said that with or without a questionnaire we can equally hold our elected officials accountable.

            The first literally and completely contradicts the second. So is that really the rationale for the questionnaires? Because if it is then, I guess I don’t see that it accomplishes anything except giving opponents ammunition to be used against the candidate.

          • Aaron Gardner

            You are changing what I said to fit a narrative you wish to push.

            I don’t play that game, and I suggest you stop playing it yourself. Don’t argue back that that isn’t what you are doing either, because you are. I don’t know whether you are even aware you are doing it, regardless, you are and I am advising you to stop.

          • wonkish1

            I’ve read through your posts numerous times. I’m not trying to change what you are saying. I am actually trying to characterize you’re position the best I understand it.

            If I’m misunderstanding you’re position just humor me and help me out. I’m seriously not trying to mischaracterize you’re position.

            My understanding is that you’re position is that questionnaires are useful for keeping candidates accountable to their pro-life stance because saying that you are pro life isn’t sufficient. If I’m getting that wrong please correct me. That is my honest assessment of what you posted above(almost verbatim). Please just tell me what I have wrong instead of just saying that you “already answered it”.

          • Aaron Gardner

            In other words, you have earn a spot on my list of people who I will ignore until you finally cross the line.

          • wonkish1

            I never said to lie to voters. Never. I just said that since geneticists are discovering genes are being discovered all the time, that one of the best arguments for promoting pro life is to ask people if they would be okay with a gene being discovered for x and people actively aborting it out of existence.

            That isn’t lying to any voter. That is an argument on an if that is a very real if.

            That said, I’m very disappointed that instead of just helping me to understand your viewpoint you resorted to personally attacking me by saying that I advocate lying to voters and by suggesting that I have reading problems.

            On top of that, it appears that it is your ego not the pro life cause is number one in your mind. Since it increasingly has become clear that you care only about the fact that a pro life strategies be the same ones you have espoused in the past instead of thinking of caring about what would work best? I don’t have that answer, but at least I care about the cause enough to actually discuss what would work best. Apparently, you don’t care about the cause enough to participate in that discussion. And apparently only because of a love for yourself. I have given you ample opportunities to show that you weren’t like that.

            So I’m done with you. I will not deal with someone that clearly cares more about preserving his ego than the cause he is serving. Good bye!!!

          • Aaron Gardner
          • Aaron Gardner
          • wonkish1

            ntt

          • Aaron Gardner
          • gekster

            there does come a time when you must
            quit poking the pirhana.
            figuratvely.
            Just some advice.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            Is that what they are calling it these days? These kids and their euphemisms!

          • Aaron Gardner

            I am not sure he has the ability to comprehend what you just wrote. It may be time for meds again.

          • gekster

            nt

          • wonkish1
          • wonkish1

            That he actually thinks his personal attacks will bother me.

            I’m done poking the teethless fish.

          • SirGladiator

            Having read this interesting discussion, it seems like the reason the Personhood Amendment is constantly failing is that people are attacking it as being against birth control, and that in fact the folks doing the amendment may actually BE against birth control. Isn’t the solution simply to stop that? Do the Amendment without the anti-birth control stuff, say explicitly that this bill fully allows birth control, this is only about abortion, not birth control. Why would anybody want to stop trying to pass the thing altogether, instead of simply trying to pass a version of it that isn’t flawed? Any version that goes after birth control is going to fail, that flaw must be corrected. Once corrected, and once people know it’s been corrected, there’s no reason why it wouldn’t have an excellent shot at passing. I fully support trying again in 2012, this time with an Amendment that focuses entirely on protecting life, and leaves birth control alone. That’s a fight we can win, and you’d better believe that if we lose it’ll only be because the far-left spends MANY millions on stopping it, money they won’t be able to spend on other races, so strategicly we’re guaranteed some kind of victory no matter what.

          • http://www.nomorelost.org/ ladyrassilon

            So yes I’m a pro-choice girl, and I think that Roe vs Wade was good because it defined the situation where it should be, in the hands of the woman not the state.

            However I favor practical methods of reducing abortions, in that you give people real sex education, not abstinence education because anyone who’s been a teenager knows that abstinence is ridiculous.

            I remember a quote about condoms in school (from the west wing)
            anticondom campaigner”If you show a teenage boy a condom, he’ll think about sex”
            leo “If you show a teenage boy a lug wrench, he’ll think about sex”

            Personhood implies that anything with human DNA is human, which would cause some interesting questions with artificial insemination, and even the HeLa cells used for biomedical testing should be given rights.

            Gut response to me does say that if something is born alive then yes its alive, but that is a fundamental misunderstanding of late term abortions. This is not the Chinese policy of enforced at birth termination of viable infants. It is about for a variety of very complex and difficult situations which result in a woman NEEDING an abortion not WANTING and abortion.

            Except for a few very rare cases the overwhelming majority of people who went for a Late Term abortion where for situations where the fetus was afflicted by something chronic, or the mental or physical wellbeing of the mother was threatened.

            If you want to say that women should not use late term abortions as a form of birth control, i’ll say that’s fair, but i somehow doubt you could find very many examples of women who did that.

            Roe vs Wade was far reaching, and many feel it went too far, however I worry that if we give up any ground to the fanatics, then they’ll keep pushing.

            It is about the woman’s rights and what’s best for her, that is the core, and people trying to make their lives and choices more difficult does no good.

          • JadedByPolitics

            Roe v Wade was law created out of whole cloth it created a KILLING MACHINE known as planned parenthood, it created a means of protection from pregnancy instead of the morality of a nation to not open your legs in the first place. BTW little missy, its NOT about women’s rights it is about KILLING and whether you believe it or not is really not the issue because LIFE begins at conception and it is MURDER to abort a life!

          • http://www.nomorelost.org/ ladyrassilon

            Its been going on since the earliest proto-hominids discovered that sex was pleasurable as well as procreative….

            Why is a ball of cells a human being? It may have human DNA, but then again so does every skin cell i shed as part of my body’s natural regeneration process… are they human as well?

            Roe vs Wade was inferred from a right to privacy, that what went on in a woman’s body was her own business, not the government… It didn’t allow abortions to happen, those had been going on since we worked out how to use a twig, it just made them safer and regulated.

          • janis

            not turn into a human being no matter what life cycle they go through. A fetus or an embryo WILL be born a human being if allowed to live. And Jaded is right. You are at the wrong site. Having read your ridiculous comments so far on everything from this to Guantanamo Bay detentions, you are a lefty to the bone. And this is not a lefty site at all.

            What I gather the most from reading your comments to date is that your blathering about “rights” has everything to do with being a Brit still, no matter what your citizenship papers may read. And the policies that you advocate are some of the most direct reasons why your native country is swirling around the drain.

            So, no thanks.

          • Aaron Gardner

            1. A skin cell that falls off of you holds your DNA. A fetus has it’s own unique DNA. Your comparison isn’t valid.

            2. Sex happens. So does rape, murder, and theft, should we make them legal simply because they will happen regardless? No.

            3. Roe v. Wade was inferred from a right to privacy. No, where did this supposed right to privacy come from? Sorry, justifying bad jurisprudence with more bad jurisprudence isn’t going to cut it in my book.

            4. I find it funny that a crusader for the LGBT cause would come here and refer to those who don’t want to kill babies in the womb as fanatics. Don’t do that again.

          • http://www.nomorelost.org/ ladyrassilon

            Well the right to privacy was considered an inferred right by Justice Brandice, and is considered by many to be one of the most important rights of the constitution without which the other rights are largely meaningless.

            Actually skin cells are unlikely to contain my exact dna since due to ambient radiation they have been mutated somewhat… not much but certainly enough to have a unique DNA from my own. This is why we generally take DNA scrapings from other parts of the body like the inside of the cheek wall.

            Rape, Murder and Theft are all crimes against others, how exactly is sex a crime against others?

            I honestly don’t see a ball of cells or in fact something non-viable without the mother’s womb a human… it hasn’t grown to that point yet…

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            Put either alone in a house. Drive off for three months and do nothing to care for them. Come back and see if either still has a pulse. I guess we just have to establish a temporarily convenient definition of viability….

          • earlgrey
          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            Or in a Chicago, Ill hospital if it survived a botched abortion attempt.

          • earlgrey

            Obama’s indifference to that says all you need to know about the man. No birth certificate clusterfark, nothing compares to that. Even pro-choice people would be against that. it sums up for me exactly who Obama is. He is bitter, emotionally stunted, and that is why he can’t pull off the Clinton charm, the Clinton charisma. You knew Clinton was full of Barbera Streisand, but you had to admire how he could present it.

            I wish more people knew about what was happening in those hospitals, and that Obama doesn’t care.

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            will hopefully ever elect to a high office in America.

            http://www.redstate.com/svkenney/2010/12/21/five-great-reasons-why-personhood-will-end-abortion/#comment-175

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            it is true . . . if I ask someone to describe their view on abortion you can know SO much about them.

            I believe this is why many pro lifers are “single issue” . . . not because it is the only issue that matters, but because a candidate’s position on abortion tells the pro lifer enough about that person as to determine all the other issues . . .

          • Aaron Gardner
          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            It’s been going on since pre-human evolutional primates discovered that violent same-sex acts of aggressive anal violation effectively resolved disputes over positions of status in the societal hierarchy of these primate bands. It occurs every day in the American prison system as lonely, frustrated young men find no outlet for their natural biological urges.

            Obviously, we should repeal laws against this natural and predictable outcome of simple, human biological urges. Especially, if it hapens in the privacy of an individual’s home. It’s all about that right to privacy that James madison explicitly put first and foremost in the US Constitution! (sorry, for the sarcasm-impaired, I was obliquely pointing out that there is no explicit right to privacy in the original framing).

            Clearly, the paragraph I wrote above was cruel, brutal and inhuman. Heck this whole post is nasty, brutish and it isn’t even short! We could never condone rape as just a natural outcome of our primal urges. Someone has bodily harm done to them entirely against their will..

            Now that’s nowhere near as bad of a buzz-kill as having someone saw your brain-pan open, jam the business end of a shop vac in there and then flush your deflated corpse down a medical waste shoot – that would just be *horrible*. But think of the lingering psychological effects. There’s just no way we could *possibly* make rape legal, safe and rare.

          • JadedByPolitics

            that Roe v Wade was “inferred” it would have had to have been inferred because there is NO SUCH RIGHT in the Constitution of the United States of America. While there has been sex since the beginning of time only in modern history do you find the species of man KILLING himself off and only in more recent history do you find a Country committing to the MURDER of itself.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            people that are pro-abortion are not welcome at RedState?

          • Aaron Gardner

            ladyrassilon disagrees with us on much more than abortion. Check the website listed in her profile.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I just wanted to clarify.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • JadedByPolitics

            where the Front Pagers all have to be prolife this is NOT a site to come make your case for MURDER, does that answer that for you!

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            The rules are only Front Page editors must be pro-life.

            Now, if someone comes in promoting murder as this gal is, feel free to fire away with all guns blazing. But if you say people that are pro-choice are not welcome here at all, then that’s something completely different.

          • JadedByPolitics

            arguing LIFE I would spend my time at Salon, or Kos however I come to Redstate to spend my days because I am with likeminded people who recognize that abortion is MURDER.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • JadedByPolitics

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            so I guess it’ll just be a sticking point for you.

          • JadedByPolitics

            I see pro death people being bounced all the time here and I enjoy it each and every time!

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I should’ve been clearer. I’m all for bouncing people that promote the pro-abortion agenda, but don’t have a problem with them being here if they aren’t promoting.

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            Reading explain which “balls of cells” qualify as human and how sex has happened and how convenient rights get invented from perumbulations int he umbras of constitutional amendments gives me a clear-eyed view of exactly how PostModern Generica is being turned into a 3rd World mediocrity by the Modern Left. It tells you exactly what you are buying if you ever have a weak moment and consider pulling the lever for some “Blue-Dog” or “Moderate” Democrat. Before you do, just hope and pray that your one of the important “balls of cells”.

          • gekster
          • streiff

            we’ve never allowed pro abortion material on the site. Front pagers must be pro-life. Diarists can be whatever but we’ll not be a forum for pro-abortion opinion.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            That’s why I said we should go after this one with all guns blazing.

          • streiff

            it has been since 2004 at least.

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            Let’s say we establish personhood. Let’s say this jurisprudentially redefines abortion as premeditated homocide. It’s then that the real problems occur.

            1) Radical Leftist Zealots who spout off with I worry that if we give up any ground to the fanatics, then they

          • http://www.nomorelost.org/ ladyrassilon

            Maybe its about difference in perspective but I don’t see a ball of cells as a human being, because to me its not, a human being is something so much more complex…

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 17

            If that ball of cells is too simple to be considered human, I’d be fascinated to here a nice, technical definition of what a human is.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • gekster

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjNo_0cW-ek

            and tell us again about the ball of cells you choose to diregard.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            While you could clearly profit from what the above posters have put up to bring your scientifically suboptimal terminology–as if a “ball of cells” were anything but complex!–up to date, I would also ask you to revisit a logical shortcoming of your materialist approach.

            Your use of “difference in perspective” begs the questions “what is, and who is qualified to define, the objective truth?” You have posited viable adult humanity as a reality so different from your “ball of cells” that there is no connection between the two. But from a slightly different perspective, say aboard the ISS, “viable adult humanity” is approximately as invisible as any embryo. Would that difference in perspective justify a decision to end all adult human life? Or from the vantage of the theoretical physicist, you know very well that what you are accustomed to referreing to as “I” is indistinguishable from infinitesimally localised packets of energy in a comparatively vast expanse–nothing. Actually, taking Heisenberg and Einstein together, “you” don’t even exist where or when you think you do, much less with ontological continuity; and if you cannot even believe that you objectively exist as a human person, it is no surprise that you cannot accept that another does as well.

            Another thought about viability, to which you have referred more than once. The pro-abortion argument always pits the fetus in the womb against the adult out of the womb; since the former is incapable of surviving in the environment of the latter, it is deemed non-viable. But viability always implies proper environment; the adult would be as non-viable in the womb as the fetus is outside of it. So, I daresay, would you yourself prove to be, in a matter of minutes, if removed from your own current providers of nutrition, termperature control, chemical balance, and oxygen*.

            I really need to know, how far did you get in Biology?

            * Don’t Try This At Home Without The Supervision Of An Adult

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            ladyrassilon . . . ask yourself at what point a human life, deserving of legal protection, comes into being? At 1 month? 6 months? 8 months? at birth?? 30 seconds before birth? at 2 yrs old?

            The only logical answer is at conception, when the sperm enters the egg, combines its DNA and creates a new and perfectly unique life form.

            It is the ONLY answer that makes sense. When I saw the live ultrasound of my daughter I broke down in tears. I can’t imagine anybody would EVER voluntarily destroy something as unbelievably amazing as that.

          • AceInTX

            The Docs thought my wife had a moler pregnancy…and ordered an ultrasound. I have pictures from that stage the size of an apple seed…and at a couple different stages after that with buds for arms and legs…and later mostly formed….the technician printed them off for me…

            My first live view of HIM on video was of HIM sucking HIS thumb in the womb…I have a VCR tape of that…

            at every stage my SON was my SON….no less so than WHO HE he is today….had my wife and I killed HIM as an apple seed…or at any of the other stages….HE’d be no less dead…WE and the doctor who did the deed would be no less than his killers

          • powertothepeople

            what you see? I do not “see” you as being moral, intelligent, or having any class at all. Does not mean I am right although the chances I am are much higher than you being right about a human fetus being a mass of cells not worthy of protection. I wonder would you scream loudly if some jackass, who found human life to be nothing and only here for their amusement, killed your mom by throwing her in a large blender. Or would his/her opinion on the value of your moms life be enough for you to move on and to accept his values?

            And you are sure not right about a human being dependent on the mercy of his/her host mom being a mass of cells.

            Now being around such trash has my stomach a wee bit sick, so I will move on so that I do not grow sicker.

          • AceInTX

            img src=”http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=333911632787&id=83d7ff097d7930be95707512ead4745b&index=ch1
            “>

          • AceInTX

            1

          • runner12

            hear, but to explain to you why I feel your reasoning is wrong. When looking at a particular issue, it is important to look at who is behind it and what their agenda is.
            The modern-day abortion movement was co-founded by a woman named Margaret Sanger. She was pro-eugenics and believed that abortion was a means of “purifying” the human race. She is also the founder of Planned Parenthood. When her ideas did not fly in the U.S., she went to Europe where she learned to re-package her message and call it “family planning” and subsequently made it about a woman’s right to choose. Unfortunately, Sanger has largely accomplished her goal. The rate among abortions among minorities is staggeringly high compared to those of Caucasians.

            The fallacy that a cell is not living is scientifically inaccurate. In a 7th grade Life Science class we are taught about theThe Living Cell. It puzzles me why in the face of strong scientific evidence to the contrary, scientists and doctors continue to support the pro-choice movement. Unfortunately, science ceased being about the scientific method and has become all about politics and money.

            The truth is that the abortion industry is a money-making business. Recently in VA, the AG Ken Cuccinelli proposed that abortion clinics be held to the same standards and regulations of hospitals and other clinics. The pro-choice movement was outraged. Why would they oppose making the clinics more accountable and hygenically safer? Money. It would cut into their bottome line. So the myth that the pro-choice movement gives a rip about women’s health and issues is just that, a myth.

            Abortion is not about sex education or birth control in my book. There are MANY other forms of brth control out there that have nothing to do with abortion. The issue is that is it morally correct to kill a baby simply because you were not ready to be a parent? In my book, the answer is a strong no.To look the other way and simply call a living being a ball of tissue may make some people feel better about their choices or what they believe, but is does not make it true or make the science that is emerging backing the pro-life movement false.

          • JSobieski

            There are many instances in the 20th century when the “logic” your assert led to all sorts of genocide.

            What are the boundaries of an inalienable human life that must be protected?

            Does going through the birth canal change the fundamental biology of a human being? No.

            What if a mother “needs” to abort her 2 year old child? What if a mother “needs” to abort her 95 year old mother? Killing based on “need” is thin justification.

            You are ignoring the other side the equation—a human life with needs of his or her own.

            If an unborn child is a human being, the “needs” of the mother do not negate that fact.

            if an unborn child is not a human being, who cares about whether birth control abortions occur or whether things go too far.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • Bill S

            Good riddance. Now go back to dkos and brag about getting banned by the big, bad conservatives. Idiot.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            If certain forms of birth control actually involve a ‘mini-abortion’ or abortifactive effect, then what?

            The same goes for the rape & incest exception argument. What is the intrinsic difference between a human baby conceived through rape or incest and a human baby conceived through consensual sex? I mean, there is no intrinsic difference. It is still a human life.

            So if your birth control method involves an abortion (like the morning after pill, or even as described by Uma Richie, the hormonal BCP pill), why would you allow it?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Your comparison is completely invalid to this discussion.

          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            he’s always been a proponent of Planned Parenthood, and no one was really paying attention until Obamacare.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            if pro-life voters were voting for someone that had a less than pro-life voting record, why do these same voters care what someone says on a questionnaire?

          • Aaron Gardner
          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            If as a candidate I’d been previously burned by right-to-life groups, I’d dismiss them from then on as well.

          • Aaron Gardner

            CRTL betrayed you, I get that, but they arent elected and we don’t vote for them. You can’t compare that to accountability over an elected official.

            My whole point is that the candidates position matters, I could care less what CRTL’s position is since I am not voting for them, nor can I hold them accountable for a candidates votes once in office.

            I think it is self defeating to say, CRTL betrayed me so I will no longer ask what a candidates position is on life issues beyond a simple declaration of said candidate being pro-life.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I said, as a candidate, in future elections I would refuse to answer pro-life questionnaires and simply release me own statement. If groups like CRTL don’t like it, so what. They weren’t going to help anyway.

          • Aaron Gardner

            And I didn’t catch the “as a candidate” part, sorry. But the point, considering the genesis of this subthread, was that candidates bear a responsibility to those who will vote for them to expound on their positions so they can be held accountable for them.

            The mechanism isn’t really my concern. What I objected to was the idea that a simple “pro-life” statement is sufficient for voters to make an informed decision. It’s not, as Bart Stupak proved.

            My point is that just because CRTL failed, it doesn’t mean we should stop asking our candidates for specifics.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Of course, the more detailed statement the better, But the smart candidates in CO will refuse all pro-life questionnaires and release their own statement so they can control the discussion. This probably wouldn’t be a bad idea for other issues. There were a number of candidates that got pigeon-holed on other issues because they answered them. Good candidates will control the message and not let others do it for them. I’m fairly certain this is something Ken Buck learned the hard way.

            We really can’t know how a candidate will vote until they actually vote anyway. Holding them to consistent pro-life votes is more important. If Michiganders had done this, Stupak wouldn’t have been around to screw us.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I think the majority of our “arguments” end this way Randy. ;)

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • Aaron Gardner
          • wonkish1

            I’m just having a tough time following you man.

          • AceInTX

            I hate cats…but if your gonna win…ya gotta appeal to cat lovers

        • AceInTX

          do you realize how arrogant you sound with that horse manure Night?

          We should just give up the fight and accept the butchery of 1.5 million children every single year into perpetuity and forget about ever winning anyone over to our side on this! Besideds…our betters feel all icky when confronted with this issue and don’t want to be bothered with it!

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Bad strategy is bad strategy. I’m interested in moving forward, this personhood thing moves us backward. It won’t do one damn thing to reduce the 1.5 million abortions each year….and could very well cause this to continue longer than it should.

            So stuff your self-righteous indignation. I’ve not called anyone names here, but I’ve been called unprincipled, arrogant, and pro-choice.

            I knew I shouldn’t have gotten into this thread. It has become the complete waste of time I thought it would.

          • AceInTX

            R3ead what YOU wrote and tell me it doesn’t come off as a little condescending NT….

            It appears Colorado will continue to suffer from self-righteous single-issue voters that don

          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            right on.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            All these people from elsewhere want to tell us what to do. This thing has failed twice, miserably. It’s affected elections and given more power to child-hating Democrats. How is this progress?

          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            You say it won’t, did not work, I see the possibility that it can if properly debated.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m sure it’s clear now that I’m against this strategy. If you guys want to try it in your state, feel free. Maybe it will work in a Bible Belt state, though I have my doubts it’ll even be successful there.

            All I ask is you stop trying here. It’s done nothing but elect democrats and set the pro-life movement back. If it’s on the ballot again, I’ll actively campaign against it, as a matter of fact it’s my hope that others will join me to use it to take down the CRTL organization that has done nothing positive and replace it with an organization that is effective in the pro-life battle.

          • AceInTX

            …doesn’t change what you said or how it came across as how you said itget mad if you will but I stand by what I said…

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Heck in the past few days I’ve been called everything but a conservative Republican!

          • AceInTX

            the important thing to remember is…it’s the comment and the delivery I went after…not the person

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            You don’t start learning until you face a disagreement. I think you and I both seek out learning experiences for clarification purposes! smile

          • AceInTX

            guess I’m on well educated dude….heh

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            your opponents!

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        not pro-life enough. Dubya and the Senates put in Alito and Roberts. That was huge and the most they could do. They also passed an anti-partial birth bill that the Roberts-Alito Congress upheld.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

            Always good to have an argument respected on all sides. :)

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
        • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

          Kennedy sided with the Roberts court in the Citizens United case, something that many though was settled case law.

          Besides this, there’s a fair number of people who aren’t so sure Kennedy wouldn’t vote to uphold a state personhood amendment… the problem is that the D.C. lobbyists are so afraid to take a chance, they don’t want to move. It’s an understandable concern, but I’m not convinced it holds up to serious, thoughtful scrutiny.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            he wrote the majority opinion and asked the question that screwed over Alana Kagan’s Deputy Solicitor General.

            “If the content of this film was in book form, would it be the position of the government that you could constitutionally ban books?”

        • Right Reason

          There’s no way to tell if it was the most they could do, ’cause it was all they tried. And let’s not forget that Alito was W’s second choice – after Harriet Miers. As far as I’m concerned WE get credit for that, not them.

          • AceInTX

            let

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            would be the 5th vote to prevent any “personhood” law from overturning Casey/Roe but I do favor legislative attempts. I’m just saying there that I think the author was too harsh on some of the opponents of the law who object to timing, etc

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    Musgrave eventually lose in part due to personhood, giving us pro-choice Betsy Markey. You’re living in the past – the old techniques won’t work. The only thing hardliners do is turn off people, ensuring the death and destruction of more and more babies. Those babies could have been saved if we would have worked to build a movement that the American people could support instead of irrationally shooting ourselves in the foot every time. I was on the inside of Buck’s campaign, and he backed off personhood because there is NO FREAKING WAY he could have won while supporting it. It failed massively, just like it does every year. Even with him backing off of it, it was still used by Dems to crucify him. Stop meddling in Colorado politics; you’ve obviously lost touch with the realities on the ground here.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
    • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

      With that tone, it’s pretty clear you weren’t *in* the campaign… so I can forgive sore feelings on a loss. Ken Buck is a great man — he deserved a better campaign than he got.

      Speaking of which, could you find a time machine, jump to 2006, and have that conversation with Dick Wadhams? George Allen would really appreciate that if you did.

      Bottom line is, 30% of the electorate had personhood on their minds that election day. Pro-lifers are single issue voters — political science 101 — and when you are perceived to turn your back on their issues, they walk. Bottom line. Besides — what precisely did Buck gain by un-endorsing personhood in Colorado? Did the Dems let up? No. Did the Amdt. 62 folks hesitate? Yes.

      Did it cost Ken the election? Possibly so… tough pill to swallow, but no amount of hysterics or hyperbole is going to erase the math.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        I was one among that 30%. I won’t be voting for it again, and neither will anyone in my family and I also know a lot of others that have said the same.

        • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

          Any particular *reason* why other than hurt feelings?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            It’s bad politics and elects Democrats. That’s detrimental to the pro-life cause. I thought it was a bad idea both times it ran previously, and I’ll never vote for it again. As a matter of fact, if it makes the ballot in 2012, I will actively campaign against it.

        • wonkish1

          To get abortions ended in the US one way or another.

          http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

          Get this number above 60% and it wont be long until abortions end in the US.

          This is how, we got women’s suffrage
          This is how, Martin Luther King brought about the civil rights act.
          This is how, Reagan passed his tax cuts
          This is how, the conservative movement got Welfare Reform
          Each of these were apart of most of the time a 20+ year fight.

          The pro life movement is getting close. Do what wins voters to the cause and we win. Whatever you do don’t cause that number to go down.

          • runner12

            American people on what abortion truly is. We have made great inroads in this area, but there are still people who falsely believe that abortion is about a woman’s right to choose. You do not have the right to “choose” to murder someone.
            A great starting point is informing them of just who Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood is. She was pure evil and racist to boot. She was also a proponent of eugenics (can you say Nazi?). If the American people begin to learn how abortion began in this country and the agenda that these people espouse, that number will skyrocket above 60%.

            Educate. Vote Pro-Life. Purge the Liberal Judges. Overturn Roe vs. Wade.

          • wonkish1

            Are on the verge of discovering x gene, or y gene, etc. And people are worried about that the discovery of that gene will cause people to abort their kids.

            A gay gene works pretty good
            A stupid gene
            A ginger gene

            You name it just pick out whatever trait you think the person feels like they would have an attachment to and just tell them that scientists aren’t to far away from discovering said gene, and everybody is worried that once it becomes common that parents are just going to abort the fetus’s with the gene.

            You’ll get people signing up to be pro life in droves. You’ll even get all the gays to want to be pro-life when they think that a gay gene could be discovered to abort them out of existence.

            And its kind of funny, too. I hope thats okay to admit.

          • Aaron Gardner

            You can’t be serious.

          • wonkish1

            Scientists are discovering new genes all the time. It is likely that if the gene exists it will be discovered soon.

            Even though I don’t believe there is such thing as a gay gene because I think its a choice. If the other person doesn’t think that then he’ll believe it will it be discovered and wont want it to be aborted.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Again, that’s not how you achieve long term success.

          • wonkish1

            True or false: Are geneticists discovering new genes all the time?

            True or false: Are they likely to discover more?

            True or false: Are some of those discovery’s going to cause some parents to want to abort because of the discovery of the gene?
            I think with the down syndrome example that runner12 gave. This is obviously the case.

            And this is a very effective way to make the case against abortion.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • Aaron Gardner

            Here is the direct quote:

            You name it just pick out whatever trait you think the person feels like they would have an attachment to and just tell them that scientists aren

          • wonkish1

            Only a few posts above. T’ Ha Ha Ha. Feel free to use my desire to simplify the belief down to a short statement against me. I don’t mind!!! Everybody else can see my responses from your assertion that I was advocating lying only a few posts above as well. And I don’t need to quote that like people to treat readers like they are dummy’s that can’t look at the discussion.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Oh, and you advocate lying to the public.

          • runner12

            but in all seriousness, this though process is gaining ground.Not too long ago, many individuals who have Asperger’s Syndrome and High Functioning Autism began calling out a prominent and well-recognized Autism advocacy group due to their alleged affiliation with scientists who espoused eugenics. Their greatest fear is that a gene will be identified and that people will begin to abort them. Their fears are not unwarranted. The statistics surrounding the abortion rates of children with Down Syndrome are staggering and tragic.

          • gekster

            When Sarah didn’t abort her baby.
            How cold can they get.

          • http://jenkuznicki.com/ jenniferkuznicki

            and how it came to be legalized in this country. Most people say they are for or against. The people that are for mostly do not know how it came to be legal. The conversations with the American people without a Reagan have to be started by you and I.

      • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

        You don’t have a freaking clue what you’re talking about. You should listen to the people who were actually involved in the campaign.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I haven’t seen anyone who disagrees with the post do that yet.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      It’s bad politics and elects Democrats. That’s detrimental to the pro-life cause.

      • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

        (1) It’s a long slog, and

        (2) Electing Republicans doesn’t guarantee either change or pro-life votes, as evidenced the last time we had a Republican president and Congress.

        and:

        (3) Planned Parenthood clearly does not share you view, as they are spending millions of dollars trying to beat personhood back.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          We got two very conservative, pro-life Supremes.

          ESCR was banned.

          We just need to get the gov’t to stop funding planned parenthood. Now that’s something, if done correctly, that can get a majority of people to support.

          So no, those points weren’t countered.

          As for your long slog, continue down this path and it’s going to be a lot longer.

          • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

            In fact, what major pro-life legislation did we accomplish during the GOP control of the White House and the Congress? Legislation that wouldn’t be under threat of a bill like FOCA, for instance?

            There’s the kicker. I can recall meetings in ’09 where people were literally slamming tables behind closed door meetings because they were so afraid that decades of their work would be swept away by FOCA. That’s a scary place… personhood doesn’t have that problem in the states, especially when we’re talking about constitutional amendments.

            And that’s the other kicker too — personhood is entirely compatible with incrementalist tactics. The two simply don’t clash. The upshot? The abortion industry is scared to death of a personhood bill or amendment passing in a single state… when is the last time the abortion industry spent millions trying to defeat a pro-life initiative at a state level?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            You can keep stating no progress was made during that Bush Admin, but just saying it doesn’t make it so. Even if a personhood amendment passed in a state it would not result in reducing abortions be even one. So you willing to waste all this political capital on something that doesn’t even fulfill its stated purpose.

          • winthisone

            Personhood, according to some Colorado pro-lifers, might outlaw birth control. Michael Bennet and his dirty campaign capitalized on every point of Personhood. One CRTL spokesman told me that birth control pills might be allowed for medical conditions, but that the woman must refrain from intercourse while on them. To that I shouted, “Storm troopers to the bedroom.”

            Ken Buck’s biggest mistake was filling out the Colorado Right to Life questionnaire or even talking to them. The more CRTL is marginalized, the more honest, pro-life candidates will be elected. As it is, CRTL should be sitting proudly. They helped elect Michael Bennet.

            A CRTL spokesman wrote a blog about how bad Ken Buck was. American Right to Life, in affiliation with Colorado Right to Life, even held a press conference on the steps of the capital, urging all pro-lifers to leave the Senate election blank. They listened. Mike Bennet. the ardent pro-deather, won by a mere 15,000 votes.

            Now, all those “good” people will have the blood of many babies on their hands because Bennet has never seen a pro-abortion bill he didn’t love.

            For the next election, I have vowed to marginalize CRTL so that it cannot destroy good, honest, life-loving people; only to elect more baby-hating politicians. Candidates need to stay as far away from CRTL and ARTL as possible.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • runner12

            have to admit that they do not reflect the vision of most pro-life organizations. Their ambiguous stand regarding common forms of birth control pills makes me wonder where they actually stand on this issue. Are they or are they not trying to outlaw pills like the ring, Deprovera, and the patch? The government should not be involved in these forms of birth control. The reason we oppose abortion is because it is MURDER, not because it is birth control. Their views are quite extreme and even outside the views of this staunch, hard-core, pro-lifer.
            I mean, I am all about getting rid of the “abortion” pill, but some of the common birth control pills they threw in this category were quite frankly odd.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Rhetorical question. If you wanted to cure yourself of your ignorance, see my full comment below.

          • runner12

            There are several on the market and each interacts in a different way chemically in the body. But in general, what they do is simply prevent a woman from ovulating. It in no way intereferes with implantation and many times women become pregnant on the pill. There are of course side effects to birth control pills and long-term use can actually be detrimental to a woman’s health, so it is important to be informed about the side-effects.
            Now I am opposed to the so-called Plan B pill and other such morning-after pills. Those are nothing more than abortion in pill form.

          • runner12

            than you were to me. Mostly because I respect and agree with the majority of your statements on this site. I will plead complete ignorance when it comes to economics and finance, but not when it comes to health-related topics given that I am in the health care profession.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Normally I’m not in such a combative mood as I was last night so I just want to apologize. It was the morning-after pill that was being discussed . . .

            Also, I don’t think Plan B is an abortifactive measure . . . from what I understand about it, it is an emergency ovulation prevention mechanism.

          • runner12

            Plan B. After I posted my comment I realized that I had confused it with the abortion pill (morning after pill).

          • AceInTX

            It would deal once and for all with whether a pre-born child is a person entitled to all the protections guaranteed under the constitution or not…

            I’m not familiar with the inside baseball aspect of what you two are going at it about Night…but this is a question the court should and must eventually be confronted with…the fact that Blackmun sited this as a flaw in his own argument and it has taken us this long to call this issue into question is a disgrace to all of us

            I have little doubt the liberals on the Court would still defend Roe V Wade….but it would be fun watching the intellectual knots they would tie themselves up in to justify it…

            My question for you is this…are you opposed to dealing with the personhood question in CO only…or are you opposed to dealing with the question anywhere?

          • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

            If it has a chance at passing elsewhere and doesn’t hurt pro-life candidates, by all means go for it.

          • AceInTX

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • AceInTX

            bah!

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Not easy to learn, but once you do you’ll love it.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            I’ve been hooked since playing Othello with hjkl in 1989 in a tutorial for my work environment. Always nice to know another user!

            Good stuff here. Keep in the fight. I’m more convinced than ever–including by the totally unwarranted lashings you’re received above–that the only end to the national plague will come through non-governmental influence on individuals, first on actual behavior and then on voting behaior. I’ve seen it happen in the context our own small church, where local girls who have been through our afterschool clubs, but did not remain in the church, nevertheless came back several years later with children and said that it was the explicit recall of the teaching that they had received which, at their moment of decision, had made them know that they could never have an abortion. While all of the tactical in-camp decimation is going on, who is on the ground speaking the life-giving truth to these girls? The very places where this could and should be happening more are inexcusably void of people who should be speaking truth with real effect. How ironic that among conservatives on this issue it has been deemed that the only effective solution will be–governmental–and hence, for far too long, non-existent,

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Strange you should mention teaching at church. I’ve been a board member of two different Crisis Pregnancy Centers. The utter lack of teaching in the area, both by the church and religious schools is surprised and saddening.

            Personally I’m also close to the issue. When I was young, I was thrust into this situation. Fortunately at the time you couldn’t get it done unless you had a lot of money, which I didn’t have. Instead I married the girl, she was born some 31 years ago, and is now expecting her fifth child. God saves us from ourselves more often than we even know, and often even when we don’t ask.

            :wq!

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            and the more regrettable, given your history, that overzealous tactical discourse has led some to labelling you contrary to the fruit of your own choices.

            The teaching I am thinking of has come as part and parcel of classical catechesis. Pastors who are committed to preaching Christ in the context of the whole counsel of God tend to produce lay workers, as our own, who would never have, say, a disastrous Sex Ed week for middle school girls or What Not To Do On A Date night for boys, but rather, years of incremental exposure to teachings about the imago Dei, the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage, all under the rubric of the depth of original sin and release from the same by sovereign grace–even for those have sinned in such a consequential way.

            :x

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            To all and sundry, that last line was intended to remain as typed: a colon followed by a lower-case x. NT will know what it means; the uninitiated may ignore it.

          • aesthete

            It would be more productive for them to pass a single personhood amendment in the state with the most sympathetic/best AGs, voter population, etc, than to blindly try in the first state that will do it. It would also put the least strain on Republicans running for office, given that a state that would most closely match the above criterion would most likely not punish Republicans.

            I’ll also note that this *will* politicize the judicial branch even more than it currently is, and that arguments regarding personhood and Constitutional protections would assuredly go against an originalist interpretation of the Constitution, if the intent is to use the 14th and 5th Amendments to make abortion illegal throughout the nation (though they might be appropriate under a textualist interpretation).

          • AceInTX

            as you posted earlier…having Texas or VA or GA take this to the Supremes would be p;referable and you do a great job laying out why such would be preferable than CO.

            On the second point…I don’t think forcing the court to confront it’s faulty reasoning on the Roe V Wade decision goes against an originalist interpretation of the Constitution in the least… and as for politicizing the Courts…The Courts politicized themselves when they waded into this issue in the first place…

            it’s to late to cry after the political milk has been spilled all ovger the Court

            I’ll also add…The OP makes a great case for what’s wrong with Roe V Wade in the words of Justice Blackmun himself…He could see the fault in their reasoning and said as much and the fact that it’s take the Pro Life movement 40 years to get beck to what the author of the Roe V Wade decision noticed and put his finger on is a disgrace of the highest order

          • aesthete

            This would be less a reversal of Roe v Wade than it would be our own version of Roe v Wade: IOW, it would make abortion illegal in all the states through judicial fiat and somewhat sketchy interpretation, if you’re going by originalist thought (it is somewhat less sketchy under a textualist interpretation). Personally, I’m not entirely certain on where I stand in the case of a favorable ruling: on the one hand, abortion’s illegal (which would resume government’s role as protector of the right to life, and thus would be a good thing). On the other hand, it will have been obtained through somewhat suspect judicial shenanigans, and will thoroughly politicize the judiciary even further.

            Ideally, we would get enough Supremes on our side to pass an anti-abortion law at a state level instead, and then have a state AG argue that it is the exercise of the state’s power per the 10th Amendment: it would politicize the judicial branch to some extent, but it would be correctly decided per originalism, and wouldn’t politicize it to the extent that a decision that criminalizes abortion in all state would. From that point, we could (one would hope) be able to educate and pass state referenda prohibiting the practice, as social conservatives have done with gay marriage.

            At any rate, I think we all agree that focusing on one state with good sympathetic to our cause with good legal resources would be better than the scattershot approach.

          • aesthete

            Less Republicans in blue states and the west = less success implementing incrementalist policy. Try your strategy in Southern states like Georgia: it won’t result in drags on Republican candidates, and would have the same effect (if you are looking to resolve through the Supremes). I don’t think that your strategy will work, but best of luck to you insofar as it doesn’t damage conservative prospects.

          • AceInTX

            not on this….

            Personhood amendments = less Repubs in blue states and the west

            I do agree on this:

            Try your strategy in Southern states like Georgia: it won

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            As requested by Aaron.

            1. Personhood is bringing new people into the pro-life movement.

            A, No, it’s not. The supporters of personhood are the most ardent pro-lifers. Many that are pro-life are troubled by the amendment, both by the negative election consequences, and the legitimate concerns about many commonly used forms of birth control.

            2. Personhood is bringing new money into the pro-life movement.

            A. Those that are supporting the personhood movement are the most ardent pro-lifers (see #1). These people are already putting money into pro-life causes. Personhood just happens to be their latest cause c

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            The BMW payments trumps the killing of small humans. Pandora’s box was opened in Roe v Wade. Sex without obvious consequence (have cake and eat ot too) seduced the masses and especially women, whose character was defined by being willing to say no occasionally, and so here we are.

            The language of the personhood movement is just so simple and true, that I cannot surrender to those that are willing to glaze over their eyes and reject the obvious. Never!

            Again, if our country is so far gone that we reject this simple proposition, then we can’t save it thru “smart” politics.

            I will not surrender my personhood.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            It’s also been a setback for the pro-life movement. You may be ok with that, but I’m not.

          • aesthete

            No doubt you’ve seen me and others give the pitch on RS whenever someone trots in and argues that abortion is a “woman’s choice”. We should keep arguing to that effect.

            The amendment has some legitimate problems: it bans contraceptives and birth control, and has some judicial issues. Besides that, ain’t nothing vsv abortion going nowhere without extensive voter education. We’re just not at that point, yet. The strategy is as bad as if in WWII we tried to go straight for Tokyo as a matter of principle without island hopping.

          • aesthete

            The incrementalist approach works: the farther along gestation goes, the easier it is to make the argument and the less active resistance on the part of voters. Moreover, life issues aren’t the only ones on the table: single issue voters who want pro-life legislation at the exclusion of all else are just asking for the US to become Venezuela.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            First, some assumptions: The issue of life is fundamental and informs our views on all others. Incrementalism was usurped by the courts and time has only hardened the divide except that, those that describe themselves as pro-life has increased! Sometimes incrementalism fails because it never increments enough before the tipping point.

            Lets apply the above to government spending/Big Government’Loss of liberty that produces sufficient wealth to keep the poor obese and the military superior.

            We just got thru hearing the Dems and the media and yes, a few Repubs (and NONE that dismissed the premise) wringing hands over the unthinkable tragedy that Yosemite might be closed on Christmas Day!

            Yet, we just had THE WAVE election to empower Congress to reduce government spending which will require…drum roll…words never spoken…the FIRING of 10s of thousands of government employees.

            And if they don;t cut government that much, then the election will have been for naught.

            My friends, we can’t trick weak Americans into doing what it tales to save this country whether its on the Life issue or on the fact that reducing government requires that good people lose their jobs.

            We are at the precipice.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • AceInTX

            I don’t get the inside baseball stuff about CO…but tell me how settling when a person becomes a person and is thus entitled to have his or her life protected by the state works against the pro life movement?

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m glad you admit you don’t know about the inner workings of Colorado. Honestly, if I wasn’t here to see it myself I wouldn’t understand it either. Take a look at my recent diary (still in the reco list). That may give you a little window into how things work here.

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics
      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            eh? And if the GOP is not willing to do the latter, then what good are they? NO GOOD!

            This nation is being tested and the results will determine if we survive. It will be very hard to meet the test with only a Congress. This time demands a tough love leader, and while we wring hands over those that risk votes in Boulder over daring to stand for life, we will also shirk from standing for firing federal workers. Heck, we even cower over a two week shut down of Yosemite!

            Reagan stood for life and won landslides.

          • runner12

            end abortions. But I have questions regarding the long term vision of this method. Let’s say an amendment passes. It will inevitably be immediately challenged by the ACLU. It will then move from many liberal courts where it will likely be struck down. Then it may move to the Supreme Court, where they may or may not even take the issue up.
            What is your long term goal with the amendment? Do you think it would have enough clout to overthrow Roe vs. Wade? What is the end game for this strategy? I want abortions ended once and for all in this country. We need a strategy to do so and I am not convinced this is the most effective method.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            It’s run here twice and we have the evidence.

        • AceInTX

          kudos for binging it up GC

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            How does that make me against the abortion fight? If I’m involved in a physical war and disagree an a particular battle strategy, does that make me a traitor? That’s how I’m being treated by some in this diary. Generals disagree on strategy all the time. We saw this recently in Iraq. Some strategies worked, some didn’t.

            I’m simply making my case that we don’t use a particular strategy in a particular state that has failed miserably (twice) and has empowered the enemy.

          • AceInTX

            I objected to something you said and the way you said it above…and I support forcing the Court to confront the question it avoided in the Roe V Wade Decision….When does a person become a person and at what point does he or she become entitled to the protection of the government of his or her autonomous right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…

            seems the science has is settling this issue…and it’s time the courts were confronted with the hell they have wrought on 55 million babies slaughtered on the alter of convenience and promiscuity!

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I don’t believe the courts are ready for that. I could be wrong. But if you’re wrong and press the issue, it could set things back for a long time. I think it’s better to wait until the climate is more favorable. Again, this is just a strategy discussion. I know you aren’t questioning my pro-life stance (though others here have).

          • AceInTX

            since we have one or two justices who could go either way on this…

            I’m torn on that…On the one hand…I’d like to see it brought up ASAP if there is even a slight chance it might work in order to save as many lives as possible…

            but on the either hand…if it’s brought up too early….the decision could go against us…and then we’d have the issue or stare decisis to deal with in correcting the issue if we ever get another conservative on the bench

      • Aaron Gardner

        The substance of the post boils down to the 5 points that were made at the end.

        You saying “It. Will. Never. Pass.” and blaming electoral losses on it, doesn’t really address any of the points he made.

        Additionally, Shaun seems to be advocating that we use all the tools in the box rather than just a hammer. I don’t see harm in that, and I don’t think you do either really or you wouldn’t be saying we should defund PP.

        Also, you’ve essentially made this all about Colorado and deemed the strategy insufficient for the rest of the States based on that experience. Sorry but abortion is an issue outside of CO too. National strategies don’t have to be determined by results of a ballot initiative in a State that has been trending blue the last few election cycles.

        Lastly, pinning Buck’s loss solely on Personhood doesn’t give enough credit to the disasters of Tancredo and Maes.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          If that meme were true, we wouldn’t have won AG, SoS and Treas. The votes for them were there, but weren’t for Buck. The problem wasn’t the number of voters, the problem was who they voted for.

          Buck’s demiise was based on several factors (I’ve addressed this previously), but this is certainly one of them.

          I don’t really care about his points, although I did address a couple of them in another comment. This amendment has run twice, and failed miserably. It’s also cost us some elections, not only the Senate seat, but an amendment to guarantee healthcare choice.

          If you want to try this in your state, feel free. If you try to run it here again, I will actively and vigorously work to defeat it by a greater margin than the previous times it ran.

          And quite frankly, I don’t care a whit about your national strategy. The results of that here in Colorado weren’t too kind this past cycle.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I said that pinning the loses solely on Personhood doesn’t give Tancredo and Maes enough credit.

            I can see how all of these things combined hurt the candidate. You want to find one scapegoat but that is seldom the reality.

            As far as national strategies go, and notice the plural there since you missed it the first time, we – as in all of us who are pro-life to one degree or another – have plenty to choose from. I have no problem with you choosing a different course, but that is not a reason to go out and bash someone else’s strategy based solely on the bad results in a purple state.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m opposed to this idea because I’ve seen the negative consequences. Colorado, though a purple state generally does fairly well with pro-life issues. Even so, it only gained 30% of the vote. Now you can think it would do better in other states, and feel free to try, but I’m willing to bet it wouldn’t win in any state.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Also, I just want to add that actively campaigning against this is no better than CRTL trying to actively persuade candidates to endorse it.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Since I didn’t do that, we both agree I’m not bashing.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m willing to fight against a failed strategy so that hopefully, eventually, they’ll give it up so we can start electing Republicans again.

        • Menlo

          Until there is a will by the other two branches of government to defy judicial orders, it’s a lost cause. Underlying that reality, there is no desire, let alone will, from the electorate for equality or even for meaningful abortion restrictions and their enforcement. You likely would be hard pressed for a legally pro-life majority in half a dozen states if that. In none would a majority even support significant legislative debate, let alone defiance of the judiciary.

          The terms that appeal to people have changed as have personal feelings. However, legal views have not significantly changed in at least 35 years, and the priority level has only dropped. They are not ever going to change in this country.

        • AceInTX
  • writeblock

    It’s not the situation you describe with the personhood movement growing and its opposition remaining static. On the contrary, the situation’s dynamic. The more people and money the movement attracts, the more people and money the opposition will attract–and since it starts in a superior position, it will remain there. It’s a lose-lose proposition for the personhood’s side, given its unpopularity with mainstream voters. That’s no way to win elections. Just the opposite. The movement will lose elections and result in a strengthening, not a weakening, of the opposition.

    You need to think more strategically. If this were a dictatorship, there’d be no problem–given that we controlled the dictatorship. But in a democracy we need to plan and maneuver strategically. That means gaining power. You do that by winning a majority of votes. You win a majority of votes by focusing on issues that bring people together, particularly independents. You avoid issues that turn them off–no matter how just or how noble. After you get the necessary power, THEN, you act to populate the judiciary. Only then will decisions be to your liking.

    What you want is to do it all at once. That’s not possible. Look at the left. It took a hundred years of nibbling away to bring them to where we are now. They succeeded incrementally. Your way is impossible. You will just keep banging your head against a wall, weakening our side, strengthening theirs.

    • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

      …because dynamic means spending money.

      On the flip side, I’m not saying “don’t do incremental legislation.” To the contrary, have a blast, take ‘em on.

      Let’s not make the assumption that personhood is a “static” movement either. In fact, if you polled most of the insiders within the movement, you’ll find the vast majority of them believe in personhood as an idea. In terms of legislation, that’s where the hangup occurs (and that disagreement is as old as the movement).

      For one, I’m counting on a dynamic opposition. Let them spend $3-5 million in each state beating these referenda back. Let’s have the conversation every two years. Let PP and others drop millions on this… eventually, they’ll burn out and we’ll pick up a few states.

      Keep this in mind too… the strategy for personhood isn’t too dissimilar from the strategy to implement abortion “rights” in this country. The pro-aborts went state by state until they sprung Roe v Wade. Took the entire nation by surprise… which is why PP and the abortion industry is so keen not to see that same strategy turned back on them.

      I would agree that instantaneous success would be unlikely. Nevertheless, a prolonged effort over the course of a decade is practical, doable, and certainly within historical precedent in American political campaigning.

      • aesthete

        That’s a mighty big assumption right there. Dems have been throwing away elections in the South and Midwest for years for the sake of maintaining an absolute stance for abortion. The personhood movement gives the Dems and Planned Parenthood enough tinder to burn down a thousand campaigns. They won’t tire out, because they’ll have the time of their lives castigating our candidates for support.

        Assuming that your strategy succeeds? Look forward to an even greater ratcheting up of the judicial wars. It will require a supermajority to confirm any justice from that point onwards, and that’s not a place we necessarily want to be.

  • wonkish1

    More than any other state in the country, I think Colorado has a serious problem with GOP fracturing. And if you guys don’t get it under control, the Dems are going to pick you apart.

    Conservative leaders in Weld county and conservatives leaders in Douglas county(as an example of the two polar opposites of conservatives) are going to have to sit down together and talk some things out because if you don’t, you are guys are dead.

    It looks from the outside that if you guys can’t find consensus candidates between those 2 counties you aren’t going to win squat in statewide elections.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      I recently wrote a diary about that. Single-issue causes continue to spell doom for initiatives and candidates here. We’ve got to find some common ground where we can work together.

      • wonkish1

        But at best single issue causes are a symptom not a cause.

        The problem is that the two sides aren’t talking. Then since that problem has developed the two sides are fighting each other. And because of that each side is now trying to out maneuver the other by trying to make there list of issues more important. And then because of that each side is trying to get a candidate that fits perfectly with their side, and force the other to chose their candidate or the Dem.

        That isn’t going to work.

        Personally, I think you would be surprised how much things would be fixed if someone could succeed in getting each side in the same room together.

        And hopefully maybe you can start nominating some religious small business owners or something.

        I mean practically in every other swing state they were able to get a conservative consensus candidates. Why can’t Colorado?

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          They take pride in losing elections. They take pride in bringing down good candidates because they don’t agree with them on every jot and tittle. Several people and groups have tried talking to these guys, but so far to no avail. Until that changes, we’ll be faced with the same problems.

          • wonkish1

            That are willing to talk and play ball.

            Every year we have hated the fact that the AARP told its members to not support GOP legislation. And every year we said that is BS. Finally, it just donned on us to create an alternative to AARP. So this last cycle we did.

            Find the pro life organizations that are okay being *one* of the priorities instead of *the* priority and support them. And convince other Pro Lifers to support them instead as well.

            But lets be clear here. There is no way that will work if you expect any pro life organization to endorse a Pete Coors. Candidates that strike a good balance between social and fiscal conservatism are going to have to be recruited for some pro life groups to be okay endorsing.

            And when they win, and the “impossible” ones lose the impossible ones will be marginalized.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            like Ken Buck and Bob Schaffer. People and groups have tried to talk to these guys, but they take pride in taking candidates down that don’t exactly agree with them. Sad, but true. In any case, I am involved in the discussion here. I’m a member of the People’s Press Collective, a group of center-right bloggers from a very diverse range of views.

  • sertelt

    Good Lord there’s a lot of response to this one… to sum up and reply to Shaun’s post, amendment supporters to acknowledge these facts:
    1. The amendment in Colorado hasn’t even received 30 percent of the vote, let alone a majority, in two tries even under the best case political scenario. In 2012, if the backers run it again, it will also not receive 30 percent, and will likely go back to the 27 percent level of support it received in the last presidential election with more Democrats turning out.

    Even in South Dakota, clearly a much more conservative and pro-life state in Colorado, an abortion ban lost in two tries. It’s clear that most states aren’t yet ready for banning abortions at the ballot box — and we must educate the general public while we work on making the political changes necessary to overturn Roe.

    One Roe is gone, we can fight for abortion bans in state legislatures, where we will have much greater chance of success than at the polls.

    2. The amendment has had no proven political or educational value in terms of shifting public opinion or assisting pro-life candidates and appears to have had the opposite effect. Statewide pro-life candidates keep losing despite the amendment’s supposed powers of helping candidates (and some amendment backers like CRTL attack those who don’t support it, so it puts pro-life candidates in the position of losing face with pro-life voters — hardly helpful to the cause).

    3. The amendment (in any state) will be immediately overturned in court if it is somehow miraculously approved and amendment supporters have done nothing to change the Supreme Court to overturn Roe and allow the amendment to stand.

    Shaun’s post and the responses here do nothing to mitigate that fact and the only response is to put it all on Kennedy’s shoulders and invent this notion that he will somehow rule on an amendment by deciding to overturn Roe.

    Kennedy has shown no desire to overturn Roe even though he’s been involved in abortion decisions following a case where the Supreme Court **already ruled** that merely stating life begins at conception doesn’t authorize a ban on abortions.

    We’re at a 5-4 pro-abortion majority at best and the only way to change that is with what I described in my post, not beating our head against the wall with an unconstitutional amendment.

    4. The amendment, as pro-life attorneys point out may not result in protecting unborn children even if it is approved by voters and upheld in court. This hasn’t been addressed at all in this thread.

    In response to Shaun’s top 5 list:

    1. There is no proof the personhood amendment is bringing new people into the pro-life movement. Here in Colorado, that doesn’t seem to be the case. It’s the same group of people who have always been involved, but with something new to talk about.

    The amendment is also turning people off. I talk to many people who aren’t interested in pro-life activities anymore because they’re turned off by working so hard on something only to see to completely and totally fail by a massively large margin. No one likes to be associated with losing again and again, which is all the amendment will do.

    2. Personhood is not bringing money in to the pro-life movement. Right after A62 got ballot status, the PUSA people admitted they were flat broke. They raised very little after that. The groups that are raising much more significant sums of money are pro-life groups that are not running personhood amendments but supporting the change the courts strategy I’ve outlined that most pro-life people support.

    3. The amendment will not bankrupt Planned Parenthood. Instead it gives them another fundraising vehicle. It’s foolish to think they are going to be hurt financially by combating personhood amendments. They have Hollywood and people like George Soros and Bill Gates and Ted Turner they can tap into who can write checks for millions at the drop of a hat.

    4. Personhood doesn’t work with other pro-life strategies. It defeats pro-life candidates, and its main backers specifically say any other piece of legislation or candidate who doesn’t back the amendment isn’t truly pro-life even though it’s been proven to stop abortions. The main amendment supporters specifically attack other pro-life groups, people, candidates and bills and go out of their way to mislead the public about them. The amendment doesn’t foster any harmony, but it’s been the biggest genesis of disunity in the pro-life movement since Roe.

    5. Yes, one in three Americans vote for personhood, but that’s it in Colorado (and I suspect most states). In the absolute best case political scenario, that’s its high water mark. I think it’s safe to say the amendment will not reach 40 percent in Colorado in the next generation even if run every two years for the next 25 years.

    – Steven Ertelt

    P.S. Thank you Shaun for the great post, however. You are the only person supporting personhood that I have ever debated that has ever not turned it into a personal attack or attacked the groups and people who believe it to be an ill-considered and unsuccessful strategy to end abortions. Well done! This is how adult, mature, respectful conversation and dialog should be engaged in by those who truly want to end abortions but disagree on how to get there. Everyone else needs to take a lesson from your approach and treatment of the issue and discussion.

    • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

      I’ll be the first to recognize that — especially in the pro-life movement — there are some deep, longstanding divisions. With stakes as high as these, there’s bound to be some division. The tactics of the past have typically been to block tackle other pro-life organizations and ideas… the next generation of pro-lifers will not tolerate this, IMO. A great sign, to be sure.

      I want to summarize the objections very briefly and answer them in turn, because some of them are “in the fishbowl” (meaning that those in the movement are literally cultured to see the argument this way) and others are — at least in my opinion — factually misunderstood.

      Reasons why personhood should be opposed are as summarized:

      1. Personhood won’t win *now* and will be a tough fight. Yes… and yes. Take a cue card from the left — they build on constituencies every year despite losses, until they win. Because pro-lifers are generally found within the conservative movement, we tend to think of the environment in similar ways — win the election, let the pols do their jobs, and I can go back to playing soccer and raising kids. Of course, we’re slowly learning that politics doesn’t work that way… a consistent hammering on the issues we care about creates change. Any “one-and-done” strategy should be instantly held suspect, as no collection of partisan victories will usher in a golden age for the right to life. That — in my opinion — is more Pollyannish than the strategy laid forth by personhood proponents.

      2. Personhood has no educational values. We can’t argue that personhood must win now *and* simultaneously argue that education efforts are worthless. It’s one or the other, and politically it’s suicidal. Truth is, both efforts work in tandem if they are to be successful at all.

      3. But personhood amendments will be overturned by courts! If you’re one of the thousands of people whose eyebrow just raised, I’m one of you. I don’t have this crystal ball. If you happen to have one, then next week’s Powerball numbers are immediately demanded by the RedState community (please). Maybe then we’ll have enough money to see one of these personhood amendments though!

      4. But pro-life attorneys don’t support personhood. Some pro-life attorneys don’t support personhood. I happen to believe (along with dozens of other attorneys — and not a few state AGs) that they are utterly wrong.

      5. Kennedy is not a reliable pro-life vote on the Supreme Court. …and we continue to point towards one decision to back this, even though we know Kennedy to be nominally pro-life and one of the votes to overturn 90 years of federal jurisprudence in the Citizen’s United case. This argument is most often a footnote to the “it’s not the right time” argument we hear from the D.C. crowd. To which any pro-lifer should readily respond that the abortion industry will *never* give us the right opportunity. We have to take it, and yes — that involves really hard work.

      6. Personhood isn’t involving anyone new or bringing anyone back, much less improving donations. As the comments section to this posts attests to the contrary… I’ll let the evidence stand on its own merits. :)

      7. Planned Parenthood has millions of dollars to fight back against personhood! Yep — and I for one encourage them tp spend every last dime defending the existence of their organization… maybe that’s less money going to kill babies. What’s more, I don’t accept for a moment that a cause is hopeless because I’m outspent. They have to spend millions in order to convince people to kill their own kids — it’s a marketing ploy from the get go. Every dollar we spend should cause them $25 dollars of pain… and if it bleeds the likes of Soros and Turner, so be it. Either way, there’s no way Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry can sustain a 32 state defense against personhood and win.

      8. Personhood hurts candidates. This has to be the weakest argument in the bunch. Personhood helps candidates — 30% in Colorado (a battleground state) voted for it. Pro-lifers being single issue voters, if I told any candidate that they could guarantee the support, donations, and activism of 30% of the electorate with one word — personhood — most would jump at the chance.

      I think this is what shocks the “greater good” wing of the pro-life movement more than anything else. 30% of Americans are behind the full protection of human life without exceptions or compromise. That’s not the 2% originally argued by the politicos and commentators. 30% is a huge base to work from… perhaps — just perhaps — we don’t realize our own strength?

      9. I don’t like (insert nefarious person here) and he supports personhood, Ergo, I don’t support personhood. I hate my next door neighbor, and he likes the Washington Redskins. Ergo, I hate the Washington Redskins? This is the logical fallacy… mostly because the Redskins are the greatest football team EVER. (yes, I’ve seen their record… but I bleed burgundy and gold…)

      Sadly, this has been the long train of tragedy that has plagued the pro-life movement for decades. Personality conflicts rather than honest support for principles is more the norm than not. Which makes it excruciatingly tough to stay involved… but the cause is so good, you really can’t help but stay involved. It’s the greatest social justice question of our generation — and frankly, shame on us if a personality interferes with our reason.

      10. At the end of the day, 30% is a high water mark. I contend that neither the 2008 nor the 2010 efforts in Colorado were properly funded against Planned Parenthood and the millions the industry threw at the amendments trying to defeat them. Should personhood have actually had a fraction of what the abortion industry spent defeating the movement. we would have made progress… and a rising tide lifts all boats.

      That last part — a rising tide lifting all boats — is really the key to the macro-level problems within the movement. Personhood works, Personhood is crystal clear. Personhood defines values. There are few things in the pro-life movement that cut through the noise so cleanly and present the dilemma in such concrete, realistic terms.

      I know that it’s fashionable to attack the incrementalist movement as a study in failure and cronyism. Truth be told, I think *everyone* in the movement is frustrated with the lack of progress over nearly four decades. Every argument leveled against personhood has, at one point or another, been leveled against the “greater good” camp. Those who truly seek the “common good” for every human being should be confident in the personhood approach, while allowing incrementalist legislation to continue. At the end of the day, the abortion industry will have to fight off initiatives and ideas from every angle.

      You hear a lot of commentary about scarce resources — it’s because these pro-life orgs are all desperately trying to survive on charity while the abortion industry is massively subsidized by federal and state governments. Novitiates in either the pro-life movement or the field of fundraising will attempt in their own way to scavenge. Pro-lifers and big donors in general just need to be wise enough to ferret this out for what it is, and ultimately give where their heart is. Education, sidewalk counseling, news and information, lobbying, legislation, crisis pregnancy centers, or personhood — these are all commendable efforts.

      I know Steve and others mean well when they go after fellow pro-lifers, especially when they see a strategy that their hearts and consciences believe may fail. Instead, I might recommend that a better approach would be to find the organization that best speaks with your voice, and then give something on a monthly basis. $10 a month is nothing… but it could literally be enough to print the pamphlet held by a volunteer on a cold December morning that touches a heart just before she goes into the abortion clinic that day.

      In short — there’s no need to crawdad fellow pro-lifers. The path to pro-life unity is through Roe v. Wade — and will take all of us, not just some of us, to save *all* of us (there’s that “common good” argument again) rather than *some* of us (there’s that “greater good” again).

      Personhood is the final chapter in a long line of equal rights for human beings. I say we close that chapter and do it within the next decade. It will be tough campaigning, there will be setbacks, we won’t always agree — but in the end, truth and the prayers of 53 million people whose lives ended through abortion are on OUR side.

      I’ll take that over a measly $3 million any day.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        Sure, any candidate would jump at the chance to guarantee the votes of 30% of the electorate. Unfortunately what you didn’t tell them was it also guarantees the remaining 70% of the electorate will vote for his opponent.

        • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

          Here we go again with this crystal ball stuff. You guys really have to share with the rest of us. :)

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            You’re all the way out there in Virginia, snd here we’ve already had two elections on this.

      • sertelt

        The tactics of the past have typically been to block tackle other pro-life organizations and ideas

        • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

          …and the string of consciousness was a bit tough to follow. As such, I’m going to miss a few of the responses. I’ll go backwards:

          1. I don’t go after fellow pro-lifers. Steve, take a moment and re-read what you’ve posted about some of the personhood folks you haven’t gotten along with… they’re part of the team, too — even when we don’t like their personal style.

          2. Plenty of other arguments work other than personhood. Perhaps. That’s why they work in tandem , and not in opposition.

          3. “Wait a second. Either your argument that they bring in a ton of money for pro-lifers and grow the pro-life movement is true or it isn

          • sertelt

            Steve, take a moment and re-read what you

    • http://www.bearingdrift.com Shaun Kenney

      …for a common sense argument. I think you’re sandbagging the personhood crowd just a tad bit too much (of course), but I think we all know that the argument isn’t a difference of opinion — at the end of the day, we’re ALL behind personhood — but rather just a difference in perspectives and experiences.

      Both of which can be easily resolved when good will prevails (or so I hope).

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        I do not support personhood. I know you think that’s the case, but your 100% is now down by one….and I’m pretty sure I’m not alone.

  • K.

    I think one problem with the reasoning above is that you assume that once the public is convinced it will make some difference. In fact this is not necessarily true. Spousal notification, or requiring a married woman to at least notify her spouse before an abortion, is favored by over 70% of the public but that did not prevent our rogue Supreme Court from overruling them in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Spousal consent, or requiring the consent of the husband, enjoys positive signals although there isn’t much polling data. We should at least start with an issue where the public is on our side to have some chance of success in a system where the cards are stacked against us.

    There are other measures that are already favored by the public too, like more restrictions on second-trimester abortions. But the spousal consent issue is important because it addresses the basic injustice of allowing the woman sole authority over a fetus that is both hers and her husband’s. You do not need to decide whether a fetus is or is not a person to understand why this is unacceptable. Whether the baby is allowed to be born dramatically affects the husband’s life just as it does the mother’s.

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