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Wind Energy Blows

Wind energy, the crown jewel of President Obama’s green revolution, seems to be encountering a stiff headwind of its own. As we shall see, wind energy is a highly inefficient technology for reliable power generation. The industry which supports it depends entirely on direct tax credits and federally-mandated consumption for its profitability.

This week in wind energy news:

  1. Wind farms exposed as a threat to homeland security
  2. Wind subsidies dwarf those for conventional energy sources
  3. Not coincidentally, wind energy lobbying expenditures grow by leaps and bounds

1. Wind Turbine Projects Run Into Resistance (New York Times, 8/26/10)

BARSTOW, Calif. — The United States military has found a new menace hiding here in the vast emptiness of the Mojave Desert in California: wind turbines.

Moving turbine blades can be indistinguishable from airplanes on many radar systems, and they can even cause blackout zones in which planes disappear from radar entirely. Clusters of wind turbines, which can reach as high as 400 feet, look very similar to storm activity on weather radar, making it harder for air traffic controllers to give accurate weather information to pilots. …

In 2009, about 9,000 megawatts of proposed wind projects were abandoned or delayed because of radar concerns raised by the military and the Federal Aviation Administration, according to a member survey by the American Wind Energy Association. That is nearly as much as the amount of wind capacity that was actually built in the same year, the trade group says. [emphasis added]

So we’ve got the Pentagon working at cross purposes with the Department of Energy. Great. At least we have a Hummer that runs on vegetable oil, thanks to the Pentagon’s biofuels initiative.

The fact is, wind farms seem like a real cool idea, until you deal with the practicalities of permitting, installing and maintaining them.

2. Wind Power Won’t Cool Down the Planet (WSJ 8/23/10 – link may require subscription; or, just Google a few words of the quoted text below to find the full article)

The wind industry has achieved remarkable growth largely due to the claim that it will provide major reductions in carbon dioxide emissions. There’s just one problem: It’s not true. A slew of recent studies show that wind-generated electricity likely won’t result in any reduction in carbon emissions—or that they’ll be so small as to be almost meaningless. …

Because wind blows intermittently, electric utilities must either keep their conventional power plants running all the time to make sure the lights don’t go dark, or continually ramp up and down the output from conventional coal- or gas-fired generators (called “cycling”). But coal-fired and gas-fired generators are designed to run continuously, and if they don’t, fuel consumption and emissions generally increase. A car analogy helps explain: An automobile that operates at a constant speed—say, 55 miles per hour—will have better fuel efficiency, and emit less pollution per mile traveled, than one that is stuck in stop-and-go traffic.

Despite its inefficiencies, Congress can’t help themselves when it comes to throwing money at the cute little windfarms.

Meanwhile, the wind industry is pocketing subsidies that dwarf those garnered by the oil and gas sector. The federal government provides a production tax credit of $0.022 for each kilowatt-hour of electricity produced by wind. That amounts to $6.44 per million BTU of energy produced. [As a point of comparison, the wellhead price of natural gas is currently in the neighborhood of $4.00 per million BTU. - ed.] In 2008, however, the EIA reported subsidies to oil and gas totaled $1.9 billion per year, or about $0.03 per million BTU of energy produced. Wind subsidies are more than 200 times as great as those given to oil and gas on the basis of per-unit-of-energy produced.

Perhaps it comes down to what Kevin Forbes, the director of the Center for the Study of Energy and Environmental Stewardship at Catholic University, told me: “Wind energy gives people a nice warm fuzzy feeling that we’re taking action on climate change.” Yet when it comes to CO2 emissions, “the reality is that it’s not doing much of anything.”

In other words, the concept “as free as the wind” does not apply in the business of power generation. We’ve come to expect our power grid to deliver energy on demand. Brownouts and blackouts frustrate consumers. Since wind energy requires a conventional backup, it is redundant, inefficient and expensive.

3. Solar, Wind Power Groups Becoming Prominent Washington Lobbying Forces After Years of Relative Obscurity (OpenSecrets blog, 8/25/10)

By 2007, the alternative energy industry had begun to drastically increase its lobbying spending, almost doubling its expenditures from the previous year. In 2009, alternative energy organizations shelled out an unprecedented $30 million to protect and promote their interests on Capitol Hill, and this year, it’s on pace to equal that record output.

The alternative energy industry’s lobbying expenditures have grown to 12 times from its 1998 level. In comparison, oil and gas spending and mining spending have grown less than three times their 1998 amount, and electric utility spending has grown to just twice its 1998 amount.

Leading the way is the American Wind Energy Association, which has been aggressively recruiting wind energy investors and their suppliers. [One of the directors of AWEA is Thomas S. Carnahan, brother of Rep. Russ Carnahan (D-MO) and Robin Carnahan, (D Cand Sen-MO).]

The recent involvement of AWEA in federal affairs, [AWEA spokeswoman Christine Real de Azua] said, “reflects the urgency of the industry’s number one priority — passing a national renewable electricity standard with aggressive, binding near- and long-term targets, as part of comprehensive energy and climate legislation.”

[Real de Azua] cites “market certainty” as a concern of AWEA’s members, who need legislative support of their industry “in order to expand their operations and invest in new manufacturing as well as new wind farm facilities.” She added that it is imperative to the members of AWEA that the U.S. government “steps up and clearly commits to developing renewable energy.”

So, not only are the renewable energy folks completely dependent on the constant infusion of tax credit dollars to help their economics approach parity with conventional sources, they readily admit that their top priority is securing government-mandated demand.

It’s especially ironic that they use the term “market certainty”. Markets are made up of two sides, supply and demand, each seeking balance with the other. As we saw in Item #1 above, wind can’t offer anything approaching “supply certainty”, so they look to Congress to artificially create “demand certainty”.

Cross-posted at VladEnBlog.

COMMENTS

  • snowshooze

    And the very best site is Washington DC, home of our greatest Windbags…when in session. I hate to think of the lost opportunity we had during HCR..it could have powered the NATION for years had the site been devoloped.
    The next best place would be to atach them to Air Force One which has the worlds record for non-stop vacation travel… I realize the loss of efficency driving those windmills with jet turbine power, but it would be one of this administrations greatest contributions with the greatest investment return on record…and the prevailing avarage output of the windmills would be stable and uniform unlike those perched upon hills and cliffs…

  • snowshooze

    And the very best site is Washington DC, home of our greatest Windbags…when in session. I hate to think of the lost opportunity we had during HCR..it could have powered the NATION for years had the site been devoloped.
    The next best place would be to atach them to Air Force One which has the worlds record for non-stop vacation travel… I realize the loss of efficency driving those windmills with jet turbine power, but it would be one of this administrations greatest contributions with the greatest investment return on record…and the prevailing avarage output of the windmills would be stable and uniform unlike those perched upon hills and cliffs…

  • Flagstaff

    have been known for some time, but the dissemination of that info has been intermittent itself, to say the least.

    There is a Democrat ad on the internet and probably broadcast, telling one and all how bad Republicans are, how great the Dem’s are, and other nonsense. One of the visuals and topics in it is a scene of multiple giant windmills while the voice-over extols the virtues of Democrat wind (heh) and alternative energy. It made me think of how ugly and intrusive those things are, and my guess is there are plenty of independents who feel the same way. In all, I hope a lot of them see the ad.

    • Next93

      The three energy sources that are usually thought of under the term “alternative energy” are wind, solar, and ethanol. In the state I spend most of my time in (Minnesota) the allegedly republican governor signed a green energy bill that defines the market share that the local power company must allocate for wind and solar, and ponies up massive subsidies for ethanol.

      The ethanol subsidies are coming out of my tax money whether I like it or not, the gas pumps will provide me with 10% ethanol whether I like it or not, and the power company will charge me for the ridiculously higher costs of providing power via wind and solar, whether I like it or not.

      So, my question is, where in any of this is there an “alternative” for me? Maybe a better term would be “Athoritarian Energy”,

      • Flagstaff

        You make a great point.

        • itrytobenice

          Perfect point, Next93.

  • oblio

    when I lived in Lancaster, about 40 mi away. Our airborne radars we tested would occasionally lock on to the modulated doppler returns, when they weren’t broken.

    • oblio

      nt

  • http://JamesonLewis3rd.com JamesonLewis3rd

    ?I didn’t think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows!?

  • flacracker

    There are numerous local environmental concerns over these monsters, not the least of which are gearbox fires like the one below:

    http://betterplan.squarespace.com/todays-special/2008/7/5/752008-why-do-we-need-safe-setbacks-from-industrial-wind-tur.html

    • banzaibob

      In West Texas around I10 and other highways some windmills are no further than two hundred yards from the road. I can see a prop coming loose and taking out a few cars or worse during heavy vehicle traffic.

    • JakePrime

      Compared to the dangers involved in conventional generation, safety is a non-issue. Coal fires, mine collapse, oil spills, gas plant explosions, etc. are much for dangerous. There are many issue of concern, as mentioned above, but safety is not one of them.

      • flacracker

        The gear boxes on these massive machines need constant maintenance or fires and explosions will result, these are not the most reliable machines in the world – hardly. The blades are made of either fiberglass or carbon fiber, which give off noxious fumes when burning … and do you think a remote volunteer fire department can combat a hazardous fire 500 feet in the air?

        Besides this obvious and undeniable danger, there are these:
        http://www.savewesternny.org/health.html

      • Tbone

        But make interesting high power rifle targets.

      • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

  • callawyn

    For more fun with Greenies, point out that wind farms kill hundreds of thousands of birds each year, including a number of species that are ‘endangered’ or ‘protected’.

    There’s nothing Green about Wind Energy. On average, they only have enough wind to be generating electricity about 30% of the time, the rest of the time their fossil fuel powered backup is running. Many power companies use gas turbines for backup, which is more expensive than coal/nuclear/hydro but is easier to cycle up and down. Many power companies have simply disconnected their turbines from the grid, because the cycling problem is too annoying.

    You can put a 1000 megawatt coal fired plant on about 15 acres of land, how much land do you need for 1000 megawatts worth of 3 MW Turbines? The coal plant will operate 24/7, the turbines only about 30% of the time and you have no idea when they’ll be in operation and when not.

    I have a friend that works for a wind turbine company, he was asking me about the power company I work for and whether we have any ‘green’ energy sources. We don’t, with the exception of 1 co-gen plant (they burn trash, so not really ‘green’ either). I explained, there wouldn’t be a single commercial wind turbine in operation on the planet without massive govt subsidies. If we invest in them, what happens when the politicians decide to gut the subsidies, as is currently happening in Europe? We’d be left with an infrastructure of high maintenance, high cost, unreliable power and no way to pay for it (energy is highly regulated, you have to swim through an ocean of red tape to up your rates).

    So, yeah, no surprise about the lobbyists. When your industry becomes dependent on govt. handouts to stay afloat, you’d be insane not to invest in lobbyists.

    Here’s what I tell my lefty friends so they’ll understand: “Green Energy” is a massive and ongoing transfer of wealth from average citizens to the owners of the private companies that build the turbines/solar panels (I don’t mention that many of these companies are based in China, or they might get confused and think its a good thing). This puts the debate in terms they can understand with the working man (the ‘good guy’) being robbed by the ‘greedy evil’ capitalist. This is perfectly true and puts their sympathy on the correct side of the issue.

    • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

      …their heads might explode.

      • qixlqatl

        they should be told ;)

        • qixlqatl

          to harness the energy of exploding heads? Would that be “green” energy?

          • itrytobenice

            ‘Course anything involving doing things to make lefties go all splody headed suits me.

  • Scope

    http://dougpowers.com/2009/07/08/t-boone-pickens-big-400-foot-wind-turbine-blowout-sale/

    For laugh out loud, you must also read the right column of this blog. Never saw it before today.

    • callawyn

      Pickens has a huge holding in natural gas, which is why he was pushing wind. If the govt would pay for the wind turbines, the backup for the 70% of time they aren’t producing would be gas turbines.

      The problem he ran into wasn’t subsidies for the turbines, or the downturn in the economy, but local approval of the transmission lines he’d need to get built to connect his wind farm to the grid. No transmission lines, no subsidies. No subsidies, no wind farm.

      • Next93

        I picked up a rumor at a local electronics trade show that the local power company, forced to build windmills in exchange for expansion of the storage facilities at its two plants, figured out that it simply wasn’t cost effective to connect them to the grid. According to the rumor, there’s about 400 windmills across the state that don’t actually generate any power. Thier only purpose is to make socialistst progressives feel good about themselves.

        I thought this was something of a tall tale until I noticed something interesting – at every other generation facility I’ve seen (nuke or hydro), there’s been a big power distribution station and power transmission lines (765 KV lines or better), usually going out in several directions. I’ve yet to see a power station near a windmill farm, or any significant distribution lines. In point of fact, most windmills I’ve seen don’t have any aerial lines running from them at all (and, no, any significant power output can’t go out through a buried line).

        • itrytobenice

          The fact that there isn’t widespread rebellion amongst the American people for this kind of waste, stupidity, corruption, etc. makes me embarrassed.

          And the fact that the media is busy regurgitating press releases from politicians and their fellow travelers rather than exposing this kind of ignorance shows their value to society: None.

          • deevee

            Wake up America.

            “The fact that there isn?t widespread rebellion amongst the American people for this kind of waste, stupidity, corruption, etc. makes me embarrassed.

            And the fact that the media is busy regurgitating press releases from politicians and their fellow travelers rather than exposing this kind of ignorance shows their value to society: None.”

  • renny

    because of the monster subsidies for their idjit wind turbines.

    I think alternative fuels are a good idea, but the problem at the moment is that fossil fuels are so much more efficient and affordable–wind is not dependable and the electricity generated cannot be captured and stored–they require huge land investments, produce unrelenting hmmmmmmmmm’s (not like Ommmmmm), and kill eagles and other protected avian species;
    solar panels are highly expensive–so much so that thieves are stealing them (must be a black market) and are not good except in deserts and may be good for limited use for individual housing or businesses but are not going to power counties or states;
    biofuels ruin agriculture as ethanol has proven and also take gobs of water and distort grocery costs with inflation;
    hydro is probably the most efficient but the greens want to blow up the dams to save the stray fish;
    and nuclear is something we should have developed doing steadily but have lost the momentum and have not built one since the 70s due to “green” nonsense–France, Germany, and Switzerland run on nuclear power.

    The truth is we are going to run on coal, oil, and natural gas for another century unless some crazy breakthrough comes from “cold fusion” in a water jar.

    The lefties should get used to it. They use enough of it.

    • JakePrime

      I believe solar thermal has quite a good future. The tech’s been around for a while, but hasn’t really been pushed forward over the last 20-30 years. It fits deserts quite well and has a comparable price point to conventional sources, It’s not cheap enough yet, but it’s close. Deep heat mining geothermal also may have a strong future, though the technology isn’t quite there. Once we can figure out a way to do it without generating earthquakes, there’s great potential.

      Sadly, I don’t know if we’ll ever get back to building nuclear plants like we once did. We just don’t have the infrastructure and the leadership required to fight the misconceptions anymore. If anything, we need to upgrade our grids and replace aging generation infrastructure as a first priority. Plants that are running 20, 30, 40 years past their intended lifetimes because we can’t build new plants due to false “environmental concerns” are dangerous things to keep around.

      • callawyn

        Greens and Govt (redundant, I know) tried to put a solar farm in the Mojave Desert, but were defeated by other Greens who didn’t want it built, they found some ‘endangered’ turtle and used it to kill the whole project. All at enormous tax payer expense.

        There’s another problem too. Solar farms use huge amounts of water, to keep the array clean. Not a minor issue when you want to build in a desert (which have the added disadvantage of higher dust due to no topsoil, meaning more cleaning is necessary). Also, both solar and wind tend to have life expectancies in the 20 year range for replacing the equipment (which requires maintenance throughout that period, especially for solar).

        Solar is worse than wind. Similar roughly 30% time it generates power, 70% on backup, but MUCH more expensive. Its only ‘cheap enough’ if you ignore the govt subsidies. Basically, you pay for ‘Green’ energy in two ways, through taxpayer subsidies and higher rates to whoever buys the power (or the people that buy their products). So, the rate hike for solar isn’t that huge, but only because there are massive taxpayer subsidies to hide the true cost.

  • streetwise

    doesn’t look too cute now, does it?

    • Return to Revolution
    • Xasteius

    • Xasteius

      Notice how the blades just fly out before it collapses.

      • Tbone

        I think that’s either Barry’s Lie-Ometer or Michelle’s calorie counter.

  • Return to Revolution

    pursuing wind (and solar) power is nothing but a show of one’s fantastic ignorance. Lets make all the very real problems discussed in this post go away with some of Obama’s unicorn aura. Windmills then have the max potential to provide, what, about 5% of the all the end uses derived from oil? (that would be residential and electric power, the top two slivers in the chart; basically wind can create only heat and electricity)

    This is not to mention the fact that the raw materials for the entire chemical industry come from… oil. Making propylene from windmills – now thats something I’d like to see.

    Photobucket

    • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir
      • qixlqatl
    • JakePrime

      Oil has almost nothing to do with electricity generation. The point is to reduce energy derived from coal and natural gas in order to reduce CO2 emissions, though as pointed out above, this would not necessarily occur anyway.

      Anyone who tries to promote wind energy in order to reduce our dependence on oil is either a liar or a fool, most likely the later.

      • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

        “Anyone who tries to promote wind energy in order to reduce our dependence on oil is either a liar or a fool, most likely the later.”

        Well, we can agree about that, at least.

        • qixlqatl

          It’s not by the dictionary definition, all of which (that I found) included “malicious and false”

          • Achance

            with drivers’ licenses are the ones who get to decide what’s true.

          • qixlqatl

            And, yeah, a clever lawyer and a ….. somewhat less than incandescently brilliant (hows that?)….. jury = bad news.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        nt

        • JSobieski

          which is not nearly so stupid as using wind for power generation. Of course, oil is still far easier to use in transportation than natural gas because natural gas must be liquified to be used as a fuel.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            how convenient

  • snowshooze

    I think it was in Greece…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lnSY554Xt8

    • JakePrime

      Studies have shown that the number of birds killed by turbines is relatively insignificant, especially if they are not sited along a traditional migratory path. Even then there is little threat to bird populations, no more so than with conventional power sources and much less than with transportation,

      • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir
      • Tbone

        usually raptors, everyday and bury them to hide the true count.

        • dylanj

          by who?

          • Tbone
      • snowshooze

        My neighbor business, Alaska Battery…Bob over there there says PROUDLY that his product will NOT be damaged by birds flying through it…blades made of durable birdoleum…lol but even the residential ones eat birds. Usually they are small mills and turn at higher rpm….so the birds cannot even see the blades and fly through the invisible meat grinder…POOF! Feathers and burger anyone?

  • dylanj

    as a guy who reads this blog alot I gotta say this kind of offends me. I work at a wind turbine company and we don’t live off government handouts at all. I think alot of people are confused about what a “green” job is. I work in the shop and so do 12 more guys. We work on gearboxes and brakes and assemble and repair other components. It’s blue collar work and there isnt anything fake or wimpy about it

    • snowshooze

      In a project at Fire Island, Alaska but it turns out it is all sewed up between the Native Corporation and a German Manufacturer…and no-thanks to any outsiders…I wanted the maintnance detail in the shop. No bids accepted, closed deal.
      The initial startup through the Corporation may be conceived as government money I suppose, indirectly or not, but the work is real. Yes, they will produce energy. The cost of that energy may be questionable…cost per KWH accounting for purchase, installation, total maintnance over their effective life.. the end numbers.
      Darned mills just can’t make it in the long run. We had one up here that could withstand the below zero stuff, the huge gusts of wind and everything else…untill the blades iced up, it began to blow…and the mill threw itself apart… inches of ice had built up on the blades.
      Hey…if they can cut it where you are, I can’t argue and wouldn’t. Lots of Rural and Bush folks use them here…
      But as a public works project…naaa.. I think we should pass. Government should stay out of utilities. They couldn’t run a hot dog stand, the dogs would cost $50.00 each, they would be turkey dogs.. would never be open during hours you wanted them, the food would be rotten and cold as well….
      Private concerns are a whole ‘nother hot dog stand.

      • dylanj

        are in Kansas. Where it makes sense to have wind farms because its always windy. But my company builds smaller ones like for farms & private use.

        To me a turbine is like anything else, if you use it properly it has a function, if you try and put it anywhere then you will have problems.

    • mbecker908

      It’s the “white collar work”. That stuff done by accountants, lawyers and lobbyists.

      The bottom line is that wind energy – and solar – are not cost effective methods of generating electricity.

    • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

      The issue is not whether *your* work is legitimate, it is whether the company who built your turbine would have done it without tax credits. Even if you don’t know it, they’re taking them, I guarantee it.

      Wind energy is inefficient as a technology as compared with conventional sources. We spend a ton of tax dollars so we can say we got our energy from a windmill, when we could get the same amount of energy from conventional sources without constant infusions of tax dollars.

      It may give you a job, but when the government chooses to throw money at less efficient energy sources, it reduces our collective prosperity.

    • JSobieski

      the work would be real, but it still wouldn’t make sense.

      Banning all powered equipment in farming would also create real jobs where people work hard, but similarly make no sense (this analogy is closer to the use of alternative energy technologies)

      Spending 3 times or 4 times as much money to generate the same output is by definition economic waste. Without government subsidies, most of the green energy industry would be 6 feet under.

      Being a blacksmith involves real labor and skill, but a resurgence of blacksmith jobs would mean massive economic inefficiency and waste.

  • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

    I’m a mechanical engineer and I’ve done the math on wind farms and they’re ridiculously inefficient in terms of land use.

    Using the Palo Verde nuclear generating station outside Phoenix, AZ I calculated that it would take about 2000 turbines spread over 500 square miles (a square ~25 miles on a side) to produce as much energy as Palo Verde. Palo Verde sits on about 40 acres.

    I’d be happy to provide the data and calculations.

    • JakePrime

      Probably the worst aspect of wind energy. Even more so than the cycling issue. There is no way around the land demand of wind energy. It can be reduced, but not by much. This makes it intrinsically uncompetitive, especially compared to nuclear.

      • snowshooze

        Clogging the desert, impacting wildlife and vegetation…putting out danged little current for an incredible up front investment…and completely derailed when covered with a bit of dust. Not to mention kids with rocks, bird doo…whatever.
        Or stick them on my roof…ok…30 sunny days this summer? 3+ feet of snow in the winter, winter what…5 months long…
        Reality is no place for the green crowd. Unless you happen to be like Algore..who can turn a buck on his end.

        • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

          They get to put them in flyover country, turning them into national sacrifice zones, in order to make the coastal elites feel righteous about themselves. Win/win (if you’re a liberal Democratic).

      • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

        …that each one requires.

        Any environmentalist who thinks a problem can be handled by putting it in the hands of the Chinese mining industry needs to have his/her head examined.

        • snowshooze

          Which is the relatively rare material they make those fantastically strong permanent magnets from for the mills..
          Hey, why sell a raw material when you have the majority of it?
          Who says they don’t know how to turn a buck…
          Neodium?? not for sale… but if you want some magnets, we can talk.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            Are we going to have to go to war?!

        • JoeG

          Little turbines use permanent magnets. The big industrial ones have induction generators that only use copper and iron.

    • mbecker908

      For instance, if one of your assumptions is that the turbine is turning 24×7 that’s a huge problem.

      Frankly, in the area around Palo Verde the difference between 40 acres and 500 isn’t a huge deal. Nor, I suspect, would it be in the area in Kansas where dylanj is.

      My concern is dealing with the cyclical use of energy and not being able to time the wind gusts necessary to coincide with that use.

      • Tbone

        320,000 acres.

        • mbecker908

          500 square miles is no particular big deal. Unless you’re a vulture.

          • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

            in terms of energy and area. I wasn’t suggesting to locate the wind farm there. Not enough wind. Try 500 sq miles in Kansas.

          • mbecker908

            My only point here is that your assumptions are on the optimistic side with respect to wind…

      • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

        I couldn’t accurately determine availability. I did however use only the average wind speed of the windiest part of the US, 5 m/s, which is only a third of the speed required to drive a 2.4 MW GE turbine to 100% output. If you look at average wind speeds across the US you will not find one spot that will allow a wind turbine to operate at its 100% rated output. And the output increases geometrically with wind speed, not linearly. So at 1/3 the 100% rated wind speed the turbine only generates about 1/6 the energy. Google GE Wind Turbines and check out their specs.

        • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

          …told me their factor is 17% – that’s the percentage of design power that’s actually available on an annual average.

          He told me that the problem is when wintertime cold fronts come through, the windmills have to be shut down because the wind blows too hard. Once the front passes, there’s no wind — high pressure.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            s vsrisble pitch fan.

        • callawyn

          At 1/3 wind speed output is 1/9. The curve is very steep, and of course flat from peak on. Essentially, they are usually not producing at all or occassionally at peak output and, much more rarely, somewhere in between.

    • JoeG

      A nuclear power plant runs at full power around 95% of the time.

      A wind turbine runs about 70% of the time but rarely runs at full power. At a good wind site they will produce 35% of the possible output.

      Multiply your numbers for the land area and number of turbines by 2.5 because of this.

  • 6eorge Jetson

    where a reliable constant flow of hot air does exist.

    • snowshooze

      And weren’t designed for hot air

      • snowshooze

        These things gotta go…

        • 6eorge Jetson

          nt

  • snowshooze

    nt

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Instead of picking up garbage, cities turn every street corner or vacant lot into a giant biomass pile. You lay down lots of thermocouples connected to the energy grid, then you throw all the rotting garbage on top. The heat of decomposition heats up the thermocouples, and voila! Free energy.

    /don’t laugh it makes more sense than ethanol and wind farms.

    • qixlqatl
  • JSobieski

    solar power makes a lot of sense . . . IF the solar panels are outside the earth’s atmosphere. Whether in orbit, on the light side of he moon, or elsewhere in space, you could have solar panels several miles in size that capture sunlight 24/7, Of course, getting the power to earth would be tricky. Maybe transform the energy into ray of gamma radiation and heat water on earth (analogous to nuclear power).

    wind power makes a lot of sense . . . IF you can first develop a technology that allows you to manipulate the weather to control the amount of wind that is generated and where… and do so cheaply.

    So basically, alternative energy on massive scale is pretty useless.

    • snowshooze

      Sinchronous rock in space anchors far end of extension cord at solar panels to the earth with retro correction… just like flying a kite….lol

      • JSobieski

        although the possiblity of airplane accidents is probably higher.

        I still like the gamma ray of death better.

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      in the form of microwaves or some such.

      I shudder to think of the unforeseen consequences of ionizing your upper atmosphere and/or heating it up.

      The level of energy that would have to be beamed through to do any good, and to make up for the loss of dispersion, would be astronomical.

      • nessa

        …somebody is going to have to plug them in again when they get jerked around and come unplugged.

      • JSobieski

        you just wouldn’t want to fly into it.

        A narrow beam of death! But would the greenies prefer that to clean coal?

        • JSobieski

          http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/beam_it_down_how_the_new_satellites_can_power_the_world.shtml

    • Flagstaff

      “alternative energy on massive scale is pretty useless.”

      Thomas Edison promoted Direct Current instead of AC because of its superior safety. Alternating Current won the argument because it could be generated at power plants and transmitted economically over long distances. DC would have required many more small generating stations, or home-based ones. Powered by diesel generators, I imagine.

  • http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com katesmith

    Green Energy Tangled in web of shady deals,” Financial Times, by Guy Dinmore. Might be registration. : “As one official put it: ?Sicily is blessed with sun and wind, but it is also cursed by the Mafia.?

    Multinationals are starting to find out something that is well known to Italian investors: that concealed beneath Europe?s

    * most generous system of incentives ? supported by ?green credits? that industrial polluters have to purchase ?

    * there exists a web of corruption and shady deals. “

  • jackhammer

    and am for any decent way of generating it. Wind definitely has a place, and in some places like Germany, where I live, it probably has a decent right to exist. The general energy prices are way too high in Germany (about $0,25/kwh) so they are competitive in the meantime without subsidy. Germany also is a rather small country with no access to hydro-electric power of their own, and no oil or gas of meaning. They do have some low grade coal left, but otherwise not much. so in the aspect of some semblance of electrically self sufficiency, wind makes sense for them. They have an average of 7% wind power, but it can range from 0 all the way to 12% of the grid.

    I am all for using what you got. America has coal, they have nuclear, they have oil. There probably is some room for solar and wind too, but both should be in the low single digits of the mix.

    Solar panels belong on the roofs of huts in africa and india…places with lots of sun, no infrastructure, and where the alternative for cooking is burning dung which you inhale in your lungs inside of your hut.

    I also know that about 50% of the generated electricity goes lost in the conversion of windpower to AC. Whcih means wind is most effective when it is really going back to the old title of “wind-mill” where the wind powers a mill, with which you can mill flower, or turn some other form of crank. When the wind blows you can use the mill, when the wind isn’t blowing, you gotta find something else to do.

    There are areas with 300 decent wind days a year, using windmills there, to power purpose use electricity, and having a flexible labour force which would work on wind days, and flexibly take the non wind days off, you could make a very viable case.

    When it was Vestas making all the turbines out of denmark, it made sense, but when GE gets in the mix and turns on the lobbying money, you know something is fishy.

    GE is really a taxpayer-pickpocket operation.

    And to carbon trading, there was an interesting report on German TV where they showed some chinese chemical plants, who were getting giant amounts of credits for capture and conversion of some special type of gas that was considered 300x more harmful than carbon. When credits were tradeable (apparently there are ups and downs in that market) they were producing a tonne of it, because the cost of disposal was far less than the market price of the credit. When the value fo the credits was low or zero, the factories were magically able to shift their production away form producing that gas as a byproduct.

    All horrendous government scams….makes lawyers, lobbyists and the companies who focus on that part of the econmy rich.

    • JoeG

      “I also know that about 50% of the generated electricity goes lost in the conversion of windpower to AC.”

      The theoretical maximum conversion of kinetic energy of the wind to mechanical energy is 50%. Most windmills can get above 45%. This is a matter of matching blade speed and pitch to the wind.

      The mechanical to electrical efficiency of a wind turbine beats 90%. It’s not quite as good as other sources of energy because of the variable speed. A fixed speed turbine like at a coal plant is over 97%.

      • jackhammer

        I must have misunderstood something from the people who explained it to me….I was regretting writing “know”

  • http://www.2010blog.net jsanzone

    …protecting the ‘environment’…they fail miserably. Once you shave hundreds of square miles of mountaintops and ridges to erect them, build the roads to service them, kill raptors, owls, and bats by the hundreds, and connect them to “the grid” with yet more power lines, they still end up producing mere fractions of what a 1-square-mile-footprint nuclear plant can.

  • deevee

    Only to the developers. They can count on massive hand outs from the taxpayers thanks to the the greedy political class .These handouts include write offs, grants, tax credits, subsidies, green money, green carbon credits etc, it all comes from you the tax payer and rate payers pocket.

    Hey you city folk listen up:
    Please in this discussion do not forget the great devastation to those who are forced to live with wind turbines literally in their back yards. In WI wind turbines can be sited 1000 ft from your home – I said home not property line. It devalues property and causes health problems with industrial noise and low frequency sound invading homes. Real estate company’s will not even try to sell homes in wind farms, they can’t be sold with out 35-40% devaluation of homes and up to 75% devaluation for land. People living in wind developed areas have abandoned their homes. These wind “farms” will devalue all rural property, since who will buy rural property to live on or hunt (deer and turkey flee these industrialized wind areas) when wind development depends on the whim of the developer. The WI PSC is about to finish writing wind siting rules favoring wind development and turning a blind eye to property rights, health problems and high cost of wind power .
    www.betterplan.squarespace.com

  • fpayle

    Wind power has been around a lot longer than Barack Obama. The modern wind industry, with its web of subsidies and artificial markets, was created by Enron with the help of George W. Bush. Bush was keynote speaker at this year’s American Wind Energy Association conference.

  • michaelgoggin

    Actually, the claims made in Bryce’s WSJ article are directly contradicted by DOE data and studies (from the Bush era, in fact) showing that wind energy drastically reduces emissions of carbon dioxide and other harmful pollutants, not to mention greatly improving our country’s energy security and economy. For the facts, please see:
    http://www.awea.org/newsroom/pdf/08-27-10-Wind_and_emissions_response.pdf
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_2030.html

    Michael Goggin,
    American Wind Energy Association

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      By a shill for an industry that is getting massive public subsidies.

      • michaelgoggin

        Since the subsidies to the fossil energy industries he speaks for are far higher than anything than the small incentives that are given to wind energy. Just read the GAO report referenced here:
        http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Subsidies_Factsheet.pdf

        Also, if you look at what I wrote, you’ll see that the facts are drawn entirely from government and independent grid operator sources. I wish I could say the same for my opponents.

        Michael Goggin
        American Wind Energy Association

        • fpayle

          The GAO report Goggin cites in fact shows that per megawatt-hour of energy produced, wind received $23.37 direct federal subsidy (not counting accelerated and double depreciation and state incentives), compared with 44 cents for coal, $1.59 for nuclear, and 25 cents for natural gas (the three main sources of electricity in the U.S.).

    • fpayle

      What’s missing in Goggin/AWEA’s data is what came into and what went out of the system. Namely, it’s possible that generation in Colorado from coal and natural gas went down because they imported more electricity in exchange for exporting more wind.

      A good reason to be skeptical is Goggin’s description of the very modest reduction he claims to show as “drastically” reducing emissions and “greatly improving our country’s energy security and economy”.

      • deevee

        I bet the answer is no.

        As the Wisconsin PSC said some of you living in “wind farms” just have to sacrifice for the good of all.