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Solar Energy Flim-Flam

A local radio ad touts the benefits of residential solar systems:

  • 30% Federal tax credit (unlimited, through 2016)
  • 50% Louisiana state tax credit (residential only)
  • You can sell electricity back to the grid
  • Five to six year payout of homeowner’s cost.

A local vendor’s website goes into more detail:

Compared to investing in the stock market, or leaving money in the bank, investing in solar energy creates a high return on investment. Where else can you get an 80% ROI in a year or less!? The return is secure and predictable – and you physically own your investment! You don’t have to worry about your bank surviving or the investment banks behaving themselves—your solar investment is safe on your roof.

Why are we doing this again?

Leaving aside the salesman’s flim-flammery (an 80% tax credit is effectively a discounted cost to the consumer, not an 80% “return on investment”), the economics of this venture are just horrible.

Taking the radio ad’s claim at face value, in five years the homeowner recovers his out-of-pocket investment — 20% of the total cost of a solar installation. The payout on 100% of the cost is therefore 25 years (!), before accounting for maintenance or the time value of money. I have no idea what the claimed useful life of a solar panel may be, but 25 years in the elements would seem to be a stretch.

Look, solar energy may have some practical niches, perhaps where sunshine is more reliable than in Louisiana. Offshore oil and gas operators, my company included, use solar panels to recharge the batteries that operate warning lights and foghorns; solar makes sense because the cost of power generation by other means is prohibitively high.

But as a long term solution to electrical supply on any scale, solar is a lost cause. It currently supplies just 1% of residential electricity and virtually none on a commercial scale. That’s not going to change any time soon.

Which begs the question, does the tax credit do anything beyond making politicians and greenies feel good?

Cross-posted at Stevemaley.com.

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COMMENTS

  • Wayne

    In 2007 when the construction industry in California began to shrink, as in other recessions, I began to look to emerging markets that might save my company from painful cuts and downsizing.

    I research and developed a renewable energy division for the firm. It looked to be an exciting and beneficial addition to our operations. After I was satisfied that I knew enough about the product and it’s benefits, I began to sell the technology.

    Long story short. Once I came to the realization that solar energy salesmen were the modern day equivalent of the aluminum siding products and salesmen of the 50′s, I dismantled the entire division. And started facing reality. There was no room for an ethical businessman in that market. I began doing in my company what Congress should have started doing a long time ago. And, what states and local governments are having to face today as well.

    • kattail

      isn’t so “grean” except to the salesmans pocket. I worked for an environmental consulting firm in Florida. We went to a new office that they wanted to obtain a LEED certification on. This included using more natural light to eliminate those bad bulbs going to landfill and to reduce electrical costs. They made the entire western wall glass. Needless to say, with the afternoon Florida sun hitting it, it was the hottest area, so the AC had to work overtime to cool the bulding thus drawing a lot more power. What a scam! I never heard men complain more than I did about the waterless urinals in the men’s room…..

  • billyd

    Love reading your posts Steve. Here’s some info on something i know quite a bit about.
    Yes, there is a 30% federal tax credit.
    Some states offer a rebate rather than a tax credit. That rebate typically goes down and is normally based on a “watt” amount of the system installed.
    Money is made through the creation and selling of SRec (Solar Renewable Energy Credits). Think cap and trade. Energy suppliers are required by states to produce a certain amount of their total energy provided via green energy sources. To give you an idea of how this works in NJ… You pay between 17 and 20 cents per kilowatt hour. If you have a solar system, and you’ve created 1000 kilowatt hours of electricity, you’ve generated 1 SRec which you then sell on a website. An energy company or 3rd party bundler will call you to purchase your SRec and will offer you money for it. Here’s the kicker…. 1000 kilowatt hours of electricity on your electric bill in NJ will cost you 170 to 200 dollars. Currently an SRec is selling for around $650. Why is it selling for 3 times what the electric is going for? The state will fine the Power Company for coming up short of reaching their quota. The fine for this year? $694.
    If the only way to make money through solar was selling the power the system produced it would take you nearly 30 years to break even. Why? Glad you asked. Any power you produce and consume will save you 17 to 20 cents per KWh. Any extra power that you sell back will be purchased at 4 to 6 cents per KWh. Why? The power company will buy the power at the wholesale generation rate. That doesn’t include taxes or the delivery charge which account for more than half of the cost of electricity.
    The entire solar industry is based on the government providing tax revenue and creating penalties to pay people and businesses to invest in solar. Without any government involvement solar would be a terrible investment and not in any way shape or form cost effective.
    As far as the solar system is concerned… Inverters have a lifespan of 10 to 15 years. Panels are warrantied to produce 80% of their maximum production for 25 years. They typical breakdown is that the panel will lose about 1/2 % of their productivity per year. Panels can last 40 to 50 years.
    Now here’s the questions that everyone in the industry wonders, yet not a single person in the media or government has ever asked…..

    What do you do with the panel when it’s no longer efficient? In 40 years, where do you put the millions of panels currently in service?

    • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

      You knowledgeable commenters have added a lot to this diary.

      This is not my bailiwick, I just know the aroma of bovine droppings when I get a whiff.

      • dennism

        you know BS when you see it.

        If there were a way that a guy could outlay $10,000, get tax credits of $8,000, and save $100 a month on his utility bill, the ROI figured on a net $2,000 outlay would be quite high… I’m conceptually struggling with the idea of treating dollars not spent as income, but this is one of those situations where you can do the math easier than you can do the concept.

        If you really want some bang for your buck, get a hutch full of rabbits, no pun intended. The cash outlay is small, and if you project the cost savings as income, the ROI is in the stratosphere. It’s super low in fat, and even if rabbit doesn’t taste like chicken, at least it’s blandly inoffensive. Raising your own meat is tax free… selling the skins is taxable.

  • romeg

    Alternatively, we could just have the Feds hire a bunch of people and have them bury 10 year Treasuries, set up an auction to sell the right to dig for those T-bills to the highest bidder and, eventually we could all sit back and clip coupons.

    Is this a great country or what?

  • ryanbinaz

    and the Chinese are leading the way… We originally discovered and built a thorium reactor, but didn’t use it since we couldn’t make bombs out of the waste…

    Google Thorium

    http://scitizen.com/future-energies/is-thorium-an-energy-alchemist-s-dream-_a-14-2601.html

    • acat

      google “thorium west chicago” as well…

      “green” doesn’t mean “good for you”…. although it’s less fatal than plutonium.

      Mew

  • Raven

    If your income is high enough for you to actually claim all of it on your tax-return.

    • blooch

      you’re rich, and the Dems will come after your solar subsidy in the name of Fairness.

      Oh, and cutting the debt too, of course.

  • epiphyte

    I would think, all other things being equal, that every family would choose energy independence over being at the mercy of external forces ranging from foreign governments through domestic monopolies.

    Now you can say that all other things aren’t equal, and that’s certainly the case. However it is also true that which side wins out depends on your personal circumstances; it isn’t a matter of dogma.

    Deceptive sales tactics notwithstanding, there are many for whom solar+geothermal is a sensible solution to their energy needs right now.

    Arguably, the alternative energy tax credit creates a positive feedback loop – it tilts the balance in favor of alternative over fossil energy, making it attractive to more people, which stimulates further development of the technology, making it even more attractive, and so on.

    For example, My wife has a cousin who is a pig farmer in southern MN. In his case geothermal + either solar or wind generation makes perfect sense – partly because the tax credit actually does take the payback on his investment down to 5-8 years. At the end of that time he’ll be almost energy-independent for the foreseeable future and have massively reduced ongoing energy costs.

    On the argument that only 1% of electricity comes from solar and this isn’t going to change, I’d argue that things change very quickly in the face of disruptive technology, and that the emergence of such technology is far more likely in a climate where it is being actively sought out because it is economically favorable to do so.

    A second point on this that it’s not just the percentage of total generation that counts – how and where it is applied is very important too. For example, in my wife’s cousin’s case, if he has ~5 KW of solar or wind capacity at his disposal, and uses that to power the compressor on his geothermal HVAC, which supplies 4-5x the energy it consumes, he’s removing the need to supply the equivalent of 30KW from the energy economy as a whole.

    What does the government get in return for the lost tax revenue? Not much in the short term.. OTOH if enough people become energy independent, the nation will be too. This makes us stronger, especially in the face of increasing global competition, both for fossil resources and in the consequent development of alternative energy technologies. It also obviates the need for spending trillions on things such as occupying half of the middle-east.

    The above is quite apart from the environmental arguments. One may or may not give these credence, but either way they can’t detract from the rationale for personal energy independence, they can only reinforce it.

    On the other hand, most of the arguments against encouraging personal energy independence only make long-term sense from the POV of those who have a vested interest in the present energy economy, and/or in the military ecosystem required to support it.

    • billyd

      Solar panels have a maximum lifespan of 50 years. The leading supplier of Silicone is China. How exactly are you going to be energy independent when the leading producer of a resource you need to produce those solar panels is a foreign country?
      As far as the enviornmental argument…. What do you do with the panels that have exhausted their energy efficiency and need to be disposed of. Sure you can recycle the aluminum rails and trim on the panels, but what about the silicone and backing? How much energy are you going to have to put into their disposal to seperate the components, or do you just bury them in the ground?
      On top of all of this…. How efficient is a product that need government intervention to compete within the current marketplace?

      Your wife’s cousin, the pig farmer, should look into using the methane produced by the pigs to power his farm. Much more cost effective in the long run, and pigs will still be producing methane in 50 years.

      • epiphyte

        “How exactly are you going to be energy independent when the leading producer of a resource you need to produce those solar panels is a foreign country?”

        Not easy, I’ll admit. We sure dropped the ball on that one. Still, once you posses it a solar panel is a means of production. A barrel of oil, OTOH, is just a barrel of oil.- like buying a fishing boat vs. buying a fish.

        “What do you do with the panels that have exhausted their energy efficiency and need to be disposed of.”

        Are you an environmentalist? If not – crush them up and drop them in a landfill. If so, you’ll probably agree with current research which indicates that PV lifecycle toxic emissions/KW are 90-300x less than those of coal power plants – and even that is under the assumption that all of the (considerable) energy needed to manufacture + install the cells come from fossil fuels.

        “On top of all of this?. How efficient is a product that need government intervention to compete within the current marketplace?”

        The GAO estimated in 2007 that w.r.t. tax expenditures “about $13.7 billion was provided to fossil fuels and only $2.8 billion to renewables”

        The fossil fuel-based energy economy depends on access to oil from the middle-east, the assurance of which requires literally trillions of dollars in government support in the form of military force projection. Nuff said.

        ” pigs will still be producing methane in 50 years.”

        …and a bunch of other mammals as well. No arguing with that.

        • billyd

          Once you posses a solar panel it’s a means of production, but a barrel of oil isn’t? Solar panels have a lifecycle much like a barrel of oil. You also want to just crush the panels up and bury them in the ground. That’s not the problem. The problem is… once the panel has exhausted it’s productivity, and is no longer efficient, how do you dispose of the panel, and then replace it? Silicone is not an infinite resource. Sure the sun will keep shining, but if you don’t have the silicone to produce the solar wafers, you have no more panels. There are so many issues with solar power and the panels are so inefficient that it makes no sense. And on top of all of this, where would you put these panels? A typical house roof, with an occupant who is energy conscious can offset about 1/2 of their consumption by covering their roof with panels. A typical house will use about 12,000 kwh per year. That takes a little more than 600ft of roof space to produce (that’s south facing roof space with a 30 degree pitch.

          Remember how i posted above about how the panels have a maximum lifespan of around 40 to 50 years? Well…. A roof has a lifespan of about 25, so, you’ll need to replace your roof before your panels exhaust their efficiency. Typical cost to take off and re-install your solar system when you need a new roof…. $1 per watt. So a 10,000 watt system will cost you 10,000 plus the cost of the new roof to re-install in 25 years, or less depending on the current age of your roof.
          Perhaps you would like to use a ground mount? Where do you get the space to put all of this, and keep it out of reach of anyone walking by? The panels produce Direct Current which isn’t the safest thing out there.
          Then you get into replacement costs for the inverters which don’t last 1/2 as long as the panels.
          And the Fossil fuel based economy doesn’t depend on access to oil from the middle east. It depends on access to the oil and gas we have here in the US.
          Last point…. Nice GAO citation. Now lets look at that number…. What percentage of our energy comes from oil and what comes from consumables? Is it a 5 to 1 ratio in favor of oil? No…. So it’s less tax revenue per KWh of energy production for oil than renewables. Huh?

    • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

      Economic measures tell us how to allocate scarce resources (capital) wisely.

      If you spend all your capital on projects with negative or marginal economic return (solar and ethanol, to name 2 examples), you’d end up, oh, about $14 trillion in debt.

      But who would be that stupid?

      Oh, wait.

      • epiphyte

        The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq cost over $2T – the predominant cause (even including the “Deficits don’t matter; Reagan proved that” unbalanced income, CGT and estate tax cuts in the EGTRRA(2001) and JGTRRA(2003) ) of the $4.4T increase in the debt between 2002 and 2008, as well a major contributor to the additional $3T in debt since then.

        At a cost of $30K /household you could reduce the domestic energy demand of 65M households (i.e.pretty much all of them) by at least 80%., using today’s technology, for half of the combined cost of the above alone.

        Trouble is a big chunk of that 80% comes out of the pockets of the people that own Washington.

        How stupid is that?

        • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

          You may want to look at the sources/uses graph linked in the OP.

          The correct answer is “none” for all intents & purposes.

          65 million sets of solar panels might mean that we’d use less coal, nat gas & nukes, for those are the primary fuels for electrical generation.

          Oil is a transportation fuel and chemical feedstock, primarily.

          Build all the panels you want, and we still have strategic interests in the Middle East.

          • dennism

            …we probably could each get close to energy independence ourselves.

    • JSobieski

      The problem with alternative energy sources is the underlying economics. The reason why we rely on fossil fuels is because the cost per BTU is inexpensive.

      When you say “many” what you really mean is “darn few”.

    • acat

      The last time every family chose energy independence would have been .. during the tribal period. In virtually every economy since, there have been those who obtain energy (gathering wood, mining coal, drilling for oil, rendering whale fat, refining uranium) in exchange for other goods, services, or money.

      Now, as a nation, we certainly could help ourselves by becoming energy-independent, but .. family units can best become less energy-wasteful, and will do so – as the american car industry proved beyond a shadow of a doubt in the 1970s -when it becomes cost-restrictive not to do so.

      Mew

      • Wayne

        Energy should be cheap and we need government out of the way and the free market so that it can be. However as long as energy company lobbyist and politicians are allowed to negotiate energy policy in the favor of price fixing, then, the cost of energy will always be more than it should be.

        I’m all for green energy if it make economic sense. And, I’m completely against it if it doesn’t. Because, the term “green energy” as a big a misnomer as you will ever hear.

        • acat

          It’s just .. readjusting deck chairs on the Titanic. Every “green” project I’ve seen involves a trade-off .. and the trade-offs frequently involve “unintended consequences” that anyone with common sense (and no pro-green blinders) can see.

          That said, the only way to get lobbyists and energy companies to leave the government alone is to reduce the power of the government, i.e. “The right to pick winners and losers in the energy sector, via the EPA or otherwise, is not in the constitution and therefore is a power left to the States”.

          Mew

  • ss396

    The only thing that subsidies do are to accelerate the clock before the technology and economics can or will robustly support the investment. I believe the arguments are not against green technology, but are against green technology crammed down our throats. What the greenies do not and cannot understand is that environmental stewardship is a process, not an event.

  • carolina

    Big disappointment. She says she has not seen any measurable benefit from the panels and that utility purchase of ‘excess’ power has been effectively zero. She thinks she got ripped off by a salesman/bad product.
    Seriously – if folks were getting any benefit from solar panels, we would all hear about it via friends. I have yet to hear a happy story.

    • billyd

      the state that you live in. Solar Panels are very beneficial to those people who live in a state that provides the most revenue back through tax credits, rebates, and Solar credit revenue. Each state is different. In NJ, you can actually get a company to put a system on your roof at no cost out of your pocket, and they’ll charge you 1/2 the rate you currently pay for each KWh produced. They of course get your tax credit, rebate, and all the Solar credits that are produced as well as the payment for the energy (even if it is 1/2 the rate you would pay the power company for that same amount of energy.)

  • kowalski

    Solar Power is a Good Energy Source if you just smoke enough dope. It works both ways:

    1) If you run a company or a household and smoke enough dope, you will eventually stop caring about the power requirements of your household or business, because you smoke enough dope.

    2) If you smoke enough dope and care about the power requirements of your household, you will consider Solar Power to be the best, because you smoke enough dope.

    Besides, everyone knows the Chinese are going to make the best Solar Cells for the future. They are counting on us smoking a lot of dope, and our municipalities are agreeing with them!

    Just smoke dope! It’ll all work out.

    • blooch

      weed movie today, their garden would be covered by a solar panel camouflage net.

      I can’t believe these guys didn’t think of it… or maybe they did, and just forgot.

      http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-51270.html

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