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VAT Tax – You Aint Seen Nothin Yet

VAT Tax
VAT – Value Added Tax.

If you don’t know what the VAT tax is, please read this article by Charles Krauthammer.

Many people have been pushing for a flat tax, or a fair tax, which is similar to VAT tax, but proponents of those don’t assume that they would be added ON TOP OF the existing taxes we pay.

With the VAT, however, the government will be able to impose even more taxes on us, and make the businesses and producers (that are adding value to products) hide the tax.  They will be taxed,  but will charge the next business down the line until the last person holding the bag is “We the People”.

Somewhere in my mind there is a faint remembrance of the promise that our taxes wouldn’t go up… hmmm must be hidden away in the same area as “No Lobbyists, No Earmarks, etc. etc. etc. etc.)

I also have a song stuck in my head since I started thinking about the VAT… “You Ain’t Seen Nothin Yet” by Bachman-Turner Overdrive.  You think your taxes are high now, you ain’t seen nothin yet.

COMMENTS

  • kyoufuu

    I mean, pretty much every country in Europe uses it. That should tell you something about its greatness right there.

    • Jonbontx

      like from Norway. In Norway the VAT is broken up into 2, 14.5% and 25%. The 25% VAT tax is the so-called “sugar” tax in Norway. It is for items that are considered bad for your health (i.e. sugar, soda, candy, chips, beer, sugary cereals, fast food, ect.), and the 14.5% is for the “healthy” products. The VAT is already considered in the price of the product, and they seperate on the receipt how much you paid was for the 14.5 and 25% (but it doesn’t say for which product). Just to give an example of how expensive things were in Norway with the VAT, a 6 pack of beer (Norway’s brand Ringness, what would be our version of Pabst Blue Ribbon) was $20. If you wanted a 6 pack of Budweiser, that ran around $35-40. A carton of eggs was $5-6, a package of 4 chicken breast were $20. Going outside of the grocery store, at McDonalds the Big Mac meal was around $15. The VAT in Norway is in addition to their already high income taxes. And everything was subject to the VAT tax in Norway (buying a monthly pass for the public transportation you paid a VAT on that as well).

      • kyoufuu

        It just says, “take the price, add X%”?

        I mean, no two products are equal in terms of cost to consumer, especially depending on where you buy them. At what point in the supply chain is the VAT added? At production or at sale?

        • izoneguy

          VAT adds a tax at every transaction….
          And it won’t replace the income tax, the VAT tax will be ON TOP of that. They will probably start charging a tax on the tax you pay!!!

        • merryj1

          It’s a “Value Added Tax” that taxes every add-on in the production process: The raw material is taxed when a manufacturer buys it, the bells and whistles that manufacturer puts into his product are all taxed, the final product is taxed when the wholesaler buys it, and the whole kit and kaboodle is taxed when the consumer buys it.

          • kyoufuu

            Consider the following:

            Say I work in manufacturing (which I do). I have a product which costs me $1000 to make. My company goal is to maintain a 30% marginal contribution (greedy capitalists!) For that to be the case, I need to charge $1,430 for my product.

            This does not include other costs of business, such as rent, utilities, etc. It only considers Cost of producing vs. sale price.

            Say I have two raw materials for my product. My cost breakdown could be as follows:
            Labor: 10% = $100
            R.M. 1: 45% = $450
            R.M. 2: 45% = $450

            If I have to pay a 10% VAT tax on the raw materials, the cost of production goes from $1,000 to $1,090. My cost breakdown is thus, approximately:

            Labor: 9.2% = $100
            R.M. 1: 45.4% = $495
            R.M. 2: 45.4% = $495

            But here’s the rub. I still want to maintain my margin of 30%. In order to achieve this, I’ll need to sell the product at $1,560.

            In other words, the customer is paying an extra 9% for the product, based only on the VAT I had to pay. Since the 10% VAT will apply to them as well, the final price on the sale of my finished good will have to be $1,716.

            This means that the customer will have to pay 20% more for my product than they would have had to without a VAT.

            The worst part is that this will be applied across the board, thus raising prices on everything, above and beyond simply the VAT cost.

            Disgusting.

          • utahrepublican

            Before discussing how the VAT actually works, I want to say that this discussion is not to support the VAT IN ADDITION to other taxes. That is a separate threat and a separate question.

            The VAT isn’t compounded or added into the price of the product at each level as you portray. It is true it is collected at every level (see below for why), but if any product is resold, the seller subtracts the VAT the seller paid from the VAT the seller collects, thus effectively REFUNDING the VAT to the current seller. To use your numbers,
            If you have to pay a 10% VAT tax on the raw materials, the cash cost of production goes from $1,000 to $1,090. My cost breakdown is thus, approximately:

            Labor: 9.2% = $100
            R.M. 1: 45.4% = $450 + $45 VAT
            R.M. 2: 45.4% = $450 + $45 VAT

            So far it looks the same. The error is in the next step. You DON’T need to sell the product at $1,560 to keep your margin. INSTEAD, you sell it at the same $1,430, and collect a VAT of $143. THEN you subtract AND KEEP the $90 of VAT you paid, sending only $53 to the tax collector. So now you are only out of pocket the original $1,000, and you have maintained your 30% margin.

            Undoubtedly you will protest that your financing costs have gone up for the period the government had your $90, so you need a slightly higher profit margin. However that is far less than the compounding 10% you claimed in your post.

            So, why would you even want to have any added cost? If it is in addition to an income tax, you wouldn’t. BUT, if it is INSTEAD of the income tax you might. (Personally I would prefer a 25% VAT on expenditures over a 35% income tax on income.) Consider the following “good” points about a VAT INSTEAD of an income tax.

            1. Even a (mechanical) clock that won’t run is right twice a day, so just because the Europeans use it doesn’t necessarily mean it is bad. The Europeans use VAT because it is regarded as the most difficult tax to cheat on (and they know a lot about cheats). All illegal aliens in Europe still pay VAT. Criminals pay VAT. All illegal aliens (or legal aliens or citizens) do not pay the income tax they owe. By making cheats (legal and otherwise) pay the tax, a lower rate will raise the same funding. (The current tax cheating is estimated in the 10s of Billions per year.) Even it this doesn’t result in lower rates, at least it should give a lower deficit.

            2. The VAT taxes consumption rather than production and does not require self reporting or detailed auditing of citizens. (On this it is the same as a sales tax.) In short, it protects liberty.

            3. Under present law, a U.S. manufacturer exporting an article (say a car) to Europe pays income tax on its earnings and the Europeans pay VAT on the car. Thus the U.S. value of the car is taxed twice. However, a European car manufacturer receives a refund of all VAT taxes paid in production, and is not subject to any income tax. Thus, the European value of a car imported to the U.S. goes untaxed. This is one reason for moving manufacturing jobs overseas. It lets the costs of manufacturing for the U.S. market go untaxed. A VAT would thus help retain American employment AND protect American manufactures from foreign competition.

            4. A VAT taxes everyone, not just the most productive. Right now about half of Americans pay no net income tax after considering all of the refundable and non-refundable social policy credits. Under a VAT, everyone pays their share. (Progressives call a fair share tax “regressive” because lower incomes spend a higher part of their incomes than upper income people. However, the tax itself is exactly proportionate and fair if taxes are to be measured by what you take out of society.)

            5. A VAT is transparent in its impact. By law (using the current implementations of VAT in other countries) the VAT MUST be separately stated a receipt given on every transaction. Thus the buyer clearly sees how much of his or her money is going to taxes, and it is clear that only consumers actually pay any tax. With an income tax, the tax is mostly hidden since you can’t see how much of the cost of goods is going to pay corporate income tax, and most taxpayers don’t notice how much tax is being withheld from paychecks.

            6. As a direct result of 5, it is harder to raise a VAT rate than an income tax rate.

            7. A VAT can be used to advantage “good” products and disadvantage “bad” products (think vegetables vs candy), but can not be used to reward Democrats over Republicans or any other favored vs unfavored groups, and therefore is less suitable to political vote buying.

            8. Some implementations of VAT do not require small vendors to register and pay. This gives a slight advantage to start up and family companies. (The advantage isn’t as big as it may seem because they still pay VAT on what they buy, so the savings is only on the value that is added by the small company.)

            Having listed these favorable characteristics, let me again say that the VAT must be INSTEAD of the income tax for these benefits to be more valuable than the overall increase in taxes which an additional tax would produce. And if I haven’t persuaded you, thank you for at least reading this far. At least you have something to think about.

          • leftylurker

            Nice explanation.

          • utahrepublican

            Apparently most of the commentators didn’t read the following statement in the article the original post was referring to.

            “As a substitute for the income tax, the VAT would be a splendid idea. Taxing consumption makes infinitely more sense than taxing work. But to feed the liberal social-democratic project, the VAT must be added on top of the income tax.”

          • kyoufuu

            I don’t like to consider myself ignorant on such matters, so I appreciate learning how it actually works :)

            A question, though. Clearly your argument for the VAT is not in addition to the income tax, but instead of. How does this compate to the FairTax? Isn’t it the same thing under a different name?

            My only real familiarity with VAT is from the fact that it is used in Europe, if I recall correctly, on top of their other taxes.

            If you mean basically the same thing as the FairTax, would it be easier to call it as much, to avoid the negative connotation that comes with the VAT? After all, VAT in current discussion is not being considered as a replacement of current tax code.

          • utahrepublican

            A sales tax is applied only on the “last sale” in the chain of commerce. A sales tax is more simple, but it is easier to cheat under the sales tax, which is why all of Europe uses a VAT.

            For example, if the final seller alone is dishonest, (i.e., he or she sells the product but does not report it, or simply withdraws it from inventory for personal or friend use) the full tax is lost under a sales tax. Under a VAT, only the last lay of tax is lost. Furthermore, it is harder for intermediate suppliers to cheat because they have to give receipts which will be used to reduce taxes later. If any suppler doesn’t report VAT on intermediate sales, the receipts can bring him to the attention of the authorities.

            A full explanation would require too much space, but this should give you enough idea to trust the European decision on this matter.

            Reduced cheating spreads the tax over everyone, which means you pay less to give the same amount of revenue to the government.

            Unfortunately, neither tax by itself keeps the government from wanting to spend everything the economy can produce plus a little more. But that is true of every kind of tax.

          • Flagstaff

            So far it looks the same. The error is in the next step. You DON

    • Flagstaff

      “VAT tax is the single most regressive tax imaginable.”

      It makes up for the PROgressive confiscations and lets the folks who don’t pay any income tax share in the cost of freedom.

      Not that I don’t hate it, anyway, because I do.

  • izoneguy

    • Flagstaff

      to its producers.

      A great low-key dismantling of the VAT idea.

    • Beasley Beesmeal

      his videos are Must watch

  • fairtaxguy

    businesses don’t already add the taxes they pay into the end of line consumer. We have over 200,000 marchers over at the online tax revolt right now headed to DC for an April 15 protest. I guess you can tell my position by my name. The Fairtax will solve a myriad of problems and put our economy in overdrive. It will put the governed in control as our constitution states.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Fairtax doesn’t have a V.

      • Hugh

        VAT (Value Added Tax) is a tax levied at every level of the supply chain. The end result is that the final consumer pays the VAT but it is not obvious how much tax was added.
        Fair Tax does not have taxes levied at the supply chain level. It adds a tax at the point of consumption and the amount of the tax is obvious. Fair tax eliminates all taxes (including employee payroll taxes) at the business level. All taxes would then be assessed to the end user. VAT is usually added on to existing taxes to generate more revenue for the government. This is very popular and necessary in many European contries. It is a nifty way to hide the taxes from public view.

        • http://ruminationsaspirations.blogspot.com jonbingham

          ONLY AFTER the government were constitutionally prohibited from any form of income taxation. Until then, the introduction of a “fair tax” would only give us taxation through both systems – the worst of all worlds.
          Thus the VAT concern…

          • merryj1

            It eliminates the federal income tax, capital gains tax, and payroll (SS & Medicare) taxes, and abolishes the Internal Revenue Service. It is a sales tax (NOT a “value added” tax), so it brings the entire underground economy into the tax base, and will bring ‘sheltered’ off-shore income back home for investment here.

            The underground economy includes all illegal activity, and all “under the table” wages for which no income tax is paid. As a sales tax, it is collected by state departments of revenue and sent from the states to the feds (bottom up instead of top down). The Bill also includes a “pre-bate” which in effect, exempts the tax on essentials to the “poverty level” (distributed by states to all households regardless of income level).

            The proposed percentage seems high (23% in the Bill), but since the Fair Tax eliminates the corporate/production embedded tax of 22%, it leaves the existing retail price about where it is.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Because criminals are going to charge sales tax.

          • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

            For their clothes, bling, and cars.

          • Flagstaff

            “The Fair Tax repeals the 16th Amendment ”

            That would mean that it must be a Constitutional Amendment, wouldn’t it?

            I know we just saw the House do some Constitutional jujitsu, but I doubt they’d be willing to help us with this one.

        • The_Gadfly

          Only Neil said it using fewer electrons.

        • utahrepublican

          When I was last in Europe, every receipt I got showed the full VAT tax applied. I think you confusion is that you don’t understand that the system effectively refunds VAT paid by intermediate payers. Example: I buy materials for $100 and pay $10 in VAT. I shape those materials into parts and sell them for $200. I have to give a receipt showing a VAT of $20, which I collect. However, I keep $10 and only send $10 to the government. So the receipt shows the FULL VAT sent to the government ($10 + $10). The parts get made into a car and sold for $10,000. The seller gives a receipt showing $1,000 VAT and collects that amount. However, the seller keeps the $20 in VAT paid to me (and all the other VAT paid to every other supplier) sending in only the excess of the new VAT amount over the sum of all the previous vat amounts. So the total VAT collected by the government is PRECISELY the $1,000 shown on the final receipt.

          How does that make the VAT hidden?

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You only see the final stage of VAT, not all the other VATs in the chain from raw materials to finished product on the shelf.

          • kyoufuu

            ::head explodes::

            Let me go look this up myself…

          • kyoufuu

            Forgive me for using Wikipedia.

            “The seller charges VAT to the buyer, and the seller pays this VAT to the government. If, however, the purchaser is not an end user, but the goods or services purchased are costs to its business, the tax it has paid for such purchases can be deducted from the tax it charges to its customers. The government only receives the difference, in other words, it is paid tax on the gross margin of each transaction, by each participant in the sales chain.”

            VAT

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Check if the jurisdictions doing that have laws mandating that all advertised prices be inclusive of VAT.

          • utahrepublican

            Since any given sale (even food at a grocery store) could be a cost of goods sold for something else, the VAT can only work if it is SEPARATELY STATED so the buyer can establish the amount to deduct on the subsequent sale.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
          • kyoufuu

            My understanding, from someone else who posted (at least in Norway) is that the VAT is pointed out at the time of purchase. But because it is refundable, it is not included in the cost of finished goods for the end user (the final consumer).

            It leaves me scratching my head somewhat, though.

            After all, in operating a business there’s margin and then there’s profitability. I can see instances where it might still drive up prices.

            For instance, say I order a raw material which has to be delivered. I have to pay a VAT on it, which can be refunded by the gov’t. But the delivery company had to buy gas, and their trucks, and parts for their trucks, all of which had a nonrefundable VAT applied. As such, the operating costs of the delivery company go up. To maintain profits, the delivery company charges me more. To maintain my profits, I therefore have to increase prices to recoup the excess charges.

            Those would be the hidden costs I can see. Perhaps I’m wrong, though.

          • Flagstaff

            Its very complexity is a huge drawback, along with the requirement that everybody who produces, maintains, sells, transfers, distributes, etc., anything has to keep accurate and detailed records of the VAT that is in every product they sell, AND pay the right tax. They do it in Europe, who knows how accurately, but look how NOT prosperous most people in Europe are. I can guarantee you there are tax evaders there, too, although they may be not the little guys. There, the scam might be at a higher level.

          • utahrepublican

            You don’t seem to have understood the the intermediate levels of VAT are REFUNDED. The government doesn’t get to keep more than the final VAT. So the is NO COMPOUNDING. The is NO HIDDEN tax. I can’t say it any more clearly.

            But maybe you will be more accepting of the opinion in the original article on which the original post is based. Charles wrote:

            “As a substitute for the income tax, the VAT would be a splendid idea.” (Its a cut-and-paste from page 2.)

          • utahrepublican

            The should be there is a couple of places. Also, I have to get back to work now, so I hope I have said enough.

          • Hugh

            http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2005/05/Beware-the-Value-Added-Tax

          • Flagstaff

            Just two of the points:

            “there is growing pres

          • Flagstaff

            See the Heritage Foundation article linked by Hugh below.

            It includes the line, “Unless politicians took the unlikely step of requiring retailers to state explicitly the portion of the sales price that is due to the VAT, consumers would be unaware of the tax.”

            There is no guarantee they’d make it explicit.

  • madmartagan

    This line in particular seems to sum up Democratic thought on fees and taxes:
    “Reasonable charges, with a little extra on the side. Charge him for lice, extra for the mice. 2% for looking in the mirror twice. Here a little slice, here a little cut. 3% for sleeping with the window shut.”

  • snowshooze

    The izoneguy supplied video is right on, but that is a simple one. Some products pass through many levels, in some cases dozens before going to market.
    Imagine manufacturing an automobile..with over a thousand parts, most of which would have already gone through multiple VAT layers…
    I can’t imagine what a car would cost…
    In the end, the consumer pays, but there is a limit.
    Give the Government money, and they will spend it.

    • izoneguy

      They will cut down to the bare essentials (We have)
      The government is just making it more expensive to live.
      The net result will be that tax revenue will continue falling.

      • Flagstaff

        “The net result will be that tax revenue will continue falling.”

        Perhaps it will be recorded in the future history books as our “Death Spiral.”

  • jimmyneutron

    from those who are bringing us so many of them. Hopefully they can’t get anything like this passed prior to next Jan – but perhaps it would be nice if they would give it a push so we can tie it around their necks like a nice, loud, ugly tie.
    As for the FairTax – I am not convinced that is the way to go. First I have a hard time they will really repeal the 16th amendment and I don’t want to give them the chance to tax us with both income and sales taxes. Second, it seems like this will still involve Washington too much with too many ways for them to manipulate the tax and use it the same way they do the current income tax as a way to reward friends and punish enemies (targeted taxes on certain ‘bad’ industries, etc). At this time I am more strongly in favor of the flat tax. One rate for everyone, etc.
    I have to admit though that I am not certain either way. What I would like is to have a real debate and discussion on the topic and try to see the wisest course chosen after careful deliberation.

  • http://www.jeannie-ology.com jeannieology

    Which is the sound America will hear when our nation hits the pavement “splat!”

    www.jeannie-ology.com

  • irish2dabone

    VAT is coming… so is Cap-n-Trade and with both the American taxpayer will be overwhelmed with taxes coming at us from ‘all’ directions, as we have never seen before.

    You see, Pres Obama said he wouldn’t be levying taxes on the Middle Class, etc., Right…! So, typical to his ‘playbook’ he places taxes on businesses (taking the monkey off his back), who in turn are forced to pass those taxes and fees along to the American people who do business with them… that’s us people!

    Some of you may have forgotten, or never heard about the UN Millennium Project that then Sen Obama supported in ’07 & ’08… that is where the US was committed to contributing around $98B to under-developed countries and the under-served in the US would not see a dime. For obvious reasons the name UN Millennium Proj was changed to something else… as this Admin likes to do when the heat is on. So now there is the Global Green Tax which will do the same thing… and its right around the corner as well.

    At the end of the day, its all “Redistribution of Wealth”

  • Flagstaff