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The Truth about the New Detainee Policy

From the diaries…

On Thursday, Congress gave the President sweeping new power to detain American citizens indefinitely, without charge or trial.  A provision in the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) empowers the President to detain anyone who “substantially supported” groups he determines are “associated forces” of terrorists.

The provision at issue, sec. 1021, was tucked into an 1800-page conference report that was shuttled through Congress in a matter of days.  Given the complexity and weight of the issue, I was interested to read House Armed Services Committee Chairman Buck McKeon’s post on RedState explaining the bill’s detention policy.  Unfortunately, the post is almost useless because it muddles two separate provisions of the NDAA.

Sec. 1021, the bill’s discretionary detention provision, authorizes the President to detain persons who “substantially supported” forces “associated” with al-Qaeda or the Taliban that “are engaged in hostilities” against the U.S. or its “coalition partners.”  None of the quoted terms are defined.  We do not know what constitutes substantial support, hostilities, or our coalition partners.  Critically, the bill does not attempt to define “associated forces,” either.  Without knowing what qualifies as an associated force, no one can be sure they are safe from the government’s detention.

Sec. 1022, the bill’s mandatory detention provision, requires the President to detain members of al-Qaeda who have planned or carried out attacks against the U.S. or its coalition partners.  Only sec. 1022 states that it “does not extend to citizens of the United States.”

(You can read the language of both provisions in the conference report.  Sec. 1021 begins on p. 653; sec. 1022 begins on p. 656.)

What’s troubling is that Chairman McKeon’s post gives you the impression that it defends sec. 1021—the discretionary detention provision—when, in fact, his post is all about sec. 1022, the mandatory provision.  The post conspicuously defends “the provision,” without referencing a specific section number.  And, at the end, it includes a chart titled “Section 1021 of the FY 2012 National Defense Authorization Act,” even though one of the two quotes in the chart is from sec. 1022, not 1021.

Sec. 1021—the provision I and other constitutional conservatives are most concerned about—is much more difficult to defend.  Its expansive, undefined, and dangerous detention power goes well beyond what Congress authorized in its September 2011 Authorization for Use of Military Force (9/11 AUMF), even though the bill claims it only “affirms” the President’s authority under the 9/11 AUMF.  To understand how much power sec. 1021 gives to the President, consider the 9/11 AUMF’s text, which Congress passed just days after the most deadly attack in U.S. history:

[T]he President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

The 9/11 AUMF authorizes force only against persons and groups who have a connection to the September 11 terrorist attacks.  The 9/11 AUMF says nothing about detention, let alone the indefinite detention of American citizens.

Despite the 9/11 AUMF’s plain language, the past two administrations have argued in court that the 9/11 AUMF authorizes the President to indefinitely detain certain persons the administration determines are enemies.  Both administrations also have claimed the 9/11 AUMF applies to persons and groups that are “associated” with al-Qaeda or the Taliban.  No 9/11 nexus is required, according to the President.

Section 1021 thus claims that it merely “affirms” the President’s authority under the 9/11 AUMF, including the alleged authority to detain persons the President determines are “associated forces.”  While the section is framed as an affirmation, it can be viewed as that only if Congress adopted the President’s expansive interpretation of the 9/11 AUMF—an action Congress never had taken before Thursday.  To be clear: When the Senate passed the NDAA conference report on Thursday, for the first time in history, Congress approved the indefinite detention of persons who “substantially supported . . . associated forces.”

Who could this cover?  An American citizen living in Michigan makes a one-time donation to a non-violent humanitarian group.  Years later, the group commits hostile acts against an ally of the U.S.  Under the NDAA that just passed Congress, if the President determines the group was “associated” with terrorists, the President is authorized to detain the donor indefinitely, and without charge or trial.

NDAA proponents sometimes point to an amendment to sec. 1021, added by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, as proof that the NDAA doesn’t apply to Americans.  The amendment, now subsection 1021(e), states:

Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

The key to subsection 1021(e) is its claim that sec. 1021 does not “affect existing law or authorities” relating to the detention of persons arrested on U.S. soil.  If the President’s expansive view of his own power were in statute, that statement would be true.  Instead, the section codifies the President’s view as if it had always existed, authorizing detention of “persons” regardless of citizenship or where they are arrested.  It then disingenuously says the bill doesn’t change that view.

In fact, the Senate expressly rejected a provision that would have prevented the indefinite detention of American citizens.  Sen. Feinstein offered another amendment to sec. 1021 that stated the section “does not include the authority to detain a citizen of the United States without trial until the end of hostilities.”  That amendment was rejected 45-55.  Sen. Feinstein’s other amendment, which does nothing to protect U.S. citizens, passed 99-1.

Our Constitution does not permit the federal government to detain American citizens indefinitely without charge or trial.  I strongly believe in protecting the country’s security and equipping our Armed Forces with the tools they need to defeat our enemies.  But the American people cannot support measures that, in the name of security, violate our constitutional rights.

The NDAA’s backers succeeded in part because of the bill’s length and complexity.  And I concede that this issue takes time to understand.  Over the next few months, I hope to join others who value our country’s constitutional rights to block the NDAA’s dangerous detention provision.  Once the American public sees for itself what’s included in the NDAA, I’m confident they will demand we do so.

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COMMENTS

  • znjs

    how horrible this bill is. I still can’t believe it passed. It’s a sad day for America when we sacrifice liberty for the illusion of safety.

    • http://www.redstateeclectic.com enrique

      In the House. Thanks for your analysis and obvious research into this bill. Your office must actually take your job of analyzing bills seriously.

      I, for one, am always troubled when we accumulate power in the executive branch and its administrative lackeys. I trust government power in economic matters as much as I do in their police power restraint. If we have a president who defines terrorists along lines of the southern poverty law center then all the readers here are at risk.

      • kinghenry

        b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

        (1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

        ——

        Andrew McCarthy addressed the absurdity of your claims at National Review in long detail.

        • swi2522

          that are economy will collapse and the political elite are passing a bill to all ow the military to arrest people to prevent citizens from going after these corrupt politicians

          when will they start building the wall around washington

          • dcacklam

            To continue to treat foreign-citizen enemy combatants as combatants, not as common criminals…

            It plainly exempts US Citizens, allowing only those who believe in ‘black helicopter’ conspiracy theories to call it a threat.

            It’s the right thing to do.

            And if people start ‘going after’ politicians with armed force, they’re traitors ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION… We already have methods to deal with that problem: 2 witnesses, a trial, and a short rope (or a 3-shot poison cocktail these days).

          • jasondallastx

            on this post?

          • jasondallastx

            that we can’t even agree on what this bill says?

            Maybe that’s the real issue? Maybe the bill is too ambiguous?

            Because we’re not arguing about our rights (we agree on that). We disagree on what the bill says…I mean, we can’t agree on what the bill says…that’s sort of an issue.

        • kinghenry

          https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=167825509983295

          Terrorist Detention: Support Every Conservative GOP U.S. Senator – Oppose Ron and Rand Paul, Obama And The ACLU

          This week thousands of misguided conservatives were urging support for legislation backed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Ron and Rand Paul, as well as Judge Andrew Napolitano. It was sponsored by liberal Senator Mark Udall (D-CO). A link to the ACLU message appears below, and the Udall amendment had the enthusiastic backing of the Obama administration.
          Liberals were attempting to derail key sections (1031 and 1032) of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), and unfortunately some conservatives and libertarians were helping them. The Obama administration has failed to produce a consistent policy on handling terror suspects, and that is why a revised NDAA was necessary.
          The Udall amendment failed by a vote to 60 to 38. It originally was defeated with the support of 61 Senators, but Bob Menendez (D-NJ) later changed his vote.
          Numerous conservative activists misrepresented the legislation. When the Udall amendment failed, Antoinette D. Walker said “This is a sad day for America and shows that the RIGHT wants big government and a taking away of our liberties too.” Jacqueline Puleo Callanan said we need to “Replace the traitors!”
          Their confusion was understandable because organizations such as “Conservative Action Alerts” repeated the ACLU talking points, and were actively supporting the Obama administration viewpoint. They were really “Liberal Action Alerts,” and the video they posted was “Sen. Rand Paul Defends American Citizens Against Indefinite Detainment.” A widely circulated message was:
          61 SENATORS BETRAYED “WE THE PEOPLE”
          61 senators have betrayed you. They authorized, as an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act, the indefinite suspension of habeas corpus. We are now officially a police state. What is wrong with Jim DeMint?
          There is nothing wrong with Jim DeMint, and he was joined by all but two GOP Senators. The Republican supporters of the Udall amendment were Rand Paul (KY) and Mark Kirk (IL). The ACLU is the same organization which has consistently lied about the Patriot Act and the War of Terror. Similar to Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX), they believe the Osama bin Laden and Anwar al-Awlaki raids were both wrong. They are now lying about military detention, and we are surprised so many conservatives are believing their nonsense.
          Nothing has been done to suspend habeas corpus rights. The President cannot order the arrest of any one he desires. They have to meet the narrow definition of a “covered person” or enemy combatant (see below). Many terrorists do not meet this definition because they are not linked to al-Qaeda or the 9/11 attack.
          The legislation does not allow for detention of American citizens indefinitely. In fact, the provisions do not apply to U.S. citizens.
          They apply to foreign terrorists captured on American soil.
          Even if you had a nuclear weapon and were plotting to destroy the U.S. government, you would still not qualify as an enemy combatant under sections 1031 and 1032, if you had no connection to al-Qaeda. During the past decade only four American citizens have been able to meet this strict definition of “enemy combatant.” The most infamous of these four is Jose Padilla, an Amerian citizen who changed his name and was also known as Abdullah al-Muhajir. He was plotting a radiological “dirty bomb” attack on Chicago.
          He went to Afghanistan and Iraq and was trained by the Taliban and al-Qaeda in the construction of dirty bombs. President Bush ordered him held as an enemy combatant because he was “closely associated with al Qaeda.” After four years it was determined he no longer had any useful additional information on al-Qaeda, and his case was transferred to the fourth circuit court of appeals.
          On August 16, 2007, Padilla was found guilty of conspiring to kill people in an overseas jihad and to fund and support overseas terrorism. He had been held as an enemy combatant because he had officailly joined enemy forces. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) noted that when you do that “and present a military threat, your citizenship is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.”
          The U.S. military is not arresting American citizens. Their role concerns detention of foreign terrorists and the four Americans who had been designated as enemy combatants. The 2001 9/11 authorization has never been misused. President Roosevelt had the same power during WW II in the Hans Haupt case. He was an American who grew up in Germany and was helping the Nazi’s. He was not given Miranda rights, and was held as an enemy combatant.
          The NDAA allows for military detention and interrogation rather than letting terrorists remain silent, and immediately stopping any questions. It does take away Miranda rights for terrorists, and they have to appear in military rather than federal court.
          The legislation requires mandatory military custody for those detained on any battlefield, which would greatly hinder ongoing operations.
          This is about a war situation, not criminal activity.
          The ACLU claims “any law-abiding American citizen” is at risk. This is an outrageous lie and the only people at risk are terrorists.
          The ACLU “Fact Sheet” contains no link to text of the bill. They do not want people to read the legislation because it destroys their arguments.
          Page 362 of the NDAA clearly states: “UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

        • presbywill

          Like Rep. McKeon, you’re confusing the sections. Sec. 1032 in the Senate bill, S. 1867, is the mandatory detention provision (sec. 1022 in the conference report). Compare the conference report’s sec. 1022 here:

          http://www.rules.house.gov/Media/file/PDF_112_1/legislativetext/HR1540conf.pdf

          to the Senate version sec. 1032 here:

          http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867es/pdf/BILLS-112s1867es.pdf

          • streiff

            understand Mr. Amash is engaging in this sophistry. The passed bill plainly exempts US citizens..

          • aesthete

            Every legal blog I’ve read on the subject — from Volokh to lawfareblog — states that the current bill is, at best, ambiguous. We’re not talking about some poltroon like Greenwald complaining that Manning’s pillows aren’t being fluffed to his satisfaction in the brig — these are somewhat more credible (and disturbing) allegations with specific cites.

            (I will also note that Sec. 1022 was only amended to exempt US citizens at the behest of Sen Diane Feinstein — certainly no friend to conservatives. It’s shameful that it has to be a Democrat who notices these problems, rather than conservatives.)

      • kinghenry

        http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/285317/real-rules-detention-andrew-c-mccarthy

        and don’t miss his previous columns utterly destroying Rand Paul and his ACLU/OBama/Holder friends.

        • gogo

          Never in my life have I seen such insane out of control practices by the government of what was once the greatest country ever. Here is what is wrong with this bill and many others that have passed in the last two Congresses:

          1) Bills with numerous pages that no one reads much less understands that incorporate passages that rape Americans of their freedom and liberty. Many of these passages may be unconstitutional turning over the power of determination to the courts. But insuring a long drawn out process of uncertainty about what it really means.

          2) Bills rushed through Congress with little or no time for Congress much less the public understanding what is in the bill. The “Pass It Now” mentality of an out of control group.

          3) Little to no media coverage of a HUGE thieft of freedom and liberty. Only Al Qaeda and Congress are happy about this provision – they have successfully passed a law that allows the President of the US to detain indefinately without trial any American he SUSPECTS as being a terrorist. I doubt 98% of Americans have any idea about this and if they do a large % of them would deny that it was any big deal. After all they are too busy watching X Factor apparently. This is why Obama runs around lying about things, he knows most Americans are clueless.

          4) The after the fact promise of Congress to undo the latest rape of freedom and liberty. They never undo anything. These out of control idiots cannot even defund ObamaCare. ObamaCare roll back or repeal is never on the table.

          5) Passing these sick disgusting bills around Christmas just before they skip out of town fot their numerous holidays. Remember Obama Kill the Old and Sick Care passing just before Christmas, the August “we have no intention of cutting spending” debt deal before the August break and now this piece of garbage.

          Absolutely disgusting

          • jlsankot

            Disgusting and deplorable and shameful and dispicable.

            Re: #3: Is this what the FEMA camps are about?

  • lizfstone

    for highlighting this atrocity against American citizens. Glad to see there is someone left in elected office who remembers we have a Constitution.

    • droc24

      Thank you Rep. Amash for your fine analysis. I spoke to my Congressman, Ander Crenshaw’s, (R-FL) office this week. He supports this bill. As an attorney I was prepared to challenge his staffer with specific language from the bill that so many find violative of the Constitution.

      I expect to be sold out by the Left but I do not understand those on our side who support this type of legislation. I don’t want any President to have this much power, whether Republican or Democrat, it is just too dangerous.

      Every Republican who supported this bill should face a primary challenge to force them to explain their vote. More likely it would expose them for being incompetent as I doubt they understand the full impact of this bill.

      • jasondallastx

        I pulled the roll call votes on this, and it went overwhelmingly republican.

        http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll932.xml

        • kinghenry

          and have threatened to Veto it? Why you are allied against Conservatives and with Obama, HOlder, the Most Progressive Senators and Congressmen and the ACLU Left who have all throughly lied about this bill.

          • znjs

            And if “Conservative” now means hating the bill of rights, then I guess I’m not conservative anymore.

          • saccrewdog

            on my house, I had to sign umpteen documents. I took my time and scan/read them all so I understood what I was signing, unlike the nervous first time when I hurried through the process and missed some crucial items they disclosed about the house.
            Would that, when our legislators and president sign a bill into law, a law that can lead to loss of liberty or property, that they be compelled to do the same! If nothing else, it would at least lead to more concise, readable laws. This nonsense with ~2k-page bills has got to stop! (Indeed, who actually WRITES these things? We can never be sure, as the process is usually concluded behind closed doors, then rammed through the legislature as though the world would end if it were it not passed that very moment. Enough!

          • dcacklam

            Nor to US Citizens *OVERSEAS* who have joined a war, as active combatants, against the USA (be it 1860 or today).

            Never has, never will….

            Such people are to be dealt with under the international law of war (aka ‘Law of Nations’ as the Constitution puts it).

            Lawful combatants (say, a Taliban fighter who was captured bearing lawful arms (AK47 & grenades, let’s say) during the 01-02 invasion) get indefinate detention ‘for the duration of hostilities’ – as POWs.

            Unlawful combatants (Al Queda & other terror .orgs, and any other type of war criminal) get trial and punishment by military court, under military law.

            This is long-settled international law, as in ‘WWII and older’…. Civillian trials of combatants are NOT ALLOWED.

            This Act EXPLICITLY EXCLUDES US CITIZENS – in PLAIN LANGUAGE with no room for creative interpretation, so there is no Bill of Rights violation, period.

            NONE.

            Combatants have NO PLACE in the civilian justice system…..

          • jasondallastx

            just sayin’.

          • Dave_A

            As explained/taught to the US military, so we don’t break it while over here in AFG….

            Proper treatment of prisoners/retained persons, what is and is not a lawful weapon, and so on… We have to go through training classes on this stuff with some regularity…

            After all, although the enemy doesn’t give a rat’s about following it, the US sticks to it like glue…

            Well, except for the whole business of trying to drag war criminals in front of civilian courts, because it pleases the ACLU….

      • kinghenry

        The Most Dishonorable Presidential Candidate on the GOP stage, fully allied with the Most Progressive Lefitst in America.

        This alone discredits him(and his Leftist friends lying about the facts of this bill and the last 10yrs of policy).

        I will trust the Vast Majority of Republicans and Leaders like Jim Demint who Voted for S.1867 and against the LEftst(Rand Paul) Udall Amendment. Particularly in context of the many facts Andrew McCarthy wrote about the last couple weeks and did the duty of Exposing Rand Paul for being allied with the ACLU/Obama/Holder Left in Lying about the Detention Bill and the actual Procedures of Detention.

        • presbywill

          Great ad hominem attack. Too bad Sen. DeMint voted against the conference report that Amash criticizes:

          http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00230

          Guess you can’t let facts get in your way.

          • kinghenry

            He voted for S.1867 and AGAINST the Udal amendment.

            Demint has voted Against all the Final Defense Bills, which includes everything rolled under it the Entire Obama Adminsiration so far. He voted against it in 2009 and 2010.

            He voted For the issue Obama, Amash and the Paul’s and ACLU are against.

          • streiff

            but thiese people will never let facts stand in the way of Black Helicopters and FEMA Relocation Camps in Montana.

      • alreadyexists

        Laws such as this are typically passed because most members of congress presume that the executive branch will be measured and judicious in its application of this new power. Is this a reasonable expectation for the current administration and Attorney General? If they demonstrate almost no restraint with respect to drone attacks in which death is the end result, then is it that improbable for a tyrannical president to jail his political opponents under the guise of “significant terrorist association?” That congress would so blithely enact this provision now suggests that they have an expectation that it will be applied in short order, and they’re not too concerned about who gets swept up in the purge.

        • kinghenry

          but probably can’t since it passed the Senate 93-7

          Amash is lying about the bill, it changes NOTHING about the ability to detain US Ctiizens connected to Jihadist. There are still the exact same High Hurdles for that to happen which has caused only 4 Citizen Jihadist to be detained by Military since 9/11…..10yrs.

          That power, with lots of chains and hurdles attached to it has been there all along. This bill neither suddenly added them or removed them. This was the point: Obama/Holder want to move Gitmo Terrorist into Civilian/Criminal Courts, this bill was in response to that and makes it much harder for Obama/Holder to do so.

          You can trust Jim Demint and the Overwhelming Support of Conservatives on this issue.

          Not Progressive Paulist and the furthest Left Senators, Obama and Holder who both hate this law and would veto it if could and the ACLU Left.

          • presbywill

            Yep, “Progressive Paulist and the furthest Left Senators” . . . and Jim DeMint.

            http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00230

            Oh, also Obama threatened to veto the bill because he thought it didn’t give him enough power. After reviewing the final bill and realizing that it gives him all of the unilateral power to detain American citizens he wants, he signaled that he’ll sign it next week.

          • kinghenry

            he has Voted against all Final Defense Bills every year under Obama.

            Look up the votes in S.1867 AND the Udall Amendment

          • kinghenry

            http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2011-210&sort=party

            S.1867 Roll Call vote

            Final Vote: 93-7
            http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00218

          • vtdelacy

            With Obama, the list of suspected “terrorists” includes peacefully protesting pro-life citizens. Who is to say he may not use this law to indefinitely detain innocently protesting pro-life Americans, casting us into the FEMA camps suddenly springing up all over the nation and leave us there for the rest of our lives without legal recourse? Something needs to be done about stopping the unconstitutional overreaches of this administration!

  • johnt

    In an age where legal positivists,[legal nihilists] can read plain language coupled with decades of comprehensible practice into their political lusts, what could such suited thugs do with this? They don’t even need a a seam or opening. Could be dangerous given the level of power lust and volcanic hatred on the left, and with a corrupt and manipulatable fool in the WH.

  • jasondallastx

    And only 93 dems.

    Rep Amash, do I have those numbers correct? If so, can you explain why it broke down like that?

    Numbers came from here:

    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll932.xml

  • bdirks

    I was told by a friend who works on the Hill that, in its simplest terms, this provision means that if the Underwear Bomber, who was caught red handed trying to carry out an act of terrorism (war) against the United States was a full American citizen, the President has the authority to detain him, treat him as an enemy combatant (and not as a common civilian criminal), and ship him off to Gitmo or some other godforsaken place indefinitely.

    That sounds great to me!

    I understand the fear from those who think the government is inherently sinister and out to get law abiding citizens who piss the iluminati off, but for the life of me I just don’t see the controversy otherwise. How am I wrong?

    • znjs

      And it might be worth doing a google search for ‘mistaken identity gitmo’ sometime.

      • bdirks

        Honestly, I am not trying to make fun of the argument, but to understand the disagreement I have to ask in a manner that appears so.

        Do people really believe that the Federal Government is capable of falsely labeling their political enemies as Al-Qaeda members just so they can lock them up and throw away the key under the terms of this provision?

        • znjs

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_el-Masri

          • bdirks

            That’s also perhaps the most well know anti-death penalty argument. Difference is, unlike the death penalty there’s actually a chance to make a u-turn if a mistake is made, as Mr. El-Masri can attest.

            Should the death penalty be tossed out for US citizens on the same ground that a mistake might possibly (actually, I’ll give you one and say inevitably) occur?

          • znjs

            How do we know if there are others that haven’t. And the death penalty is after a chance to hear the case before a jury of their peers. This takes away that right.

            To me it’s simple. Either you believe in the 4th amendment always, or only when it’s convenient.

          • Dave_A

            And citizens are absolutely excluded from the detention provisions of this bill…

            Foreign combatants belong in POW camps or in front of war crimes tribunals….

            Not in civilian prisons and/or courts….

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You want to strip rights from green card holders? Visa-holding tourists?

            Please.

          • jasondallastx

            Honest mistake.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        Statements starting with ‘google search’ are not arguments.

        • presbywill

          The problem with the bill is not so much that Obama is going to label innocent people as al Qaeda but that the bill authorizes him to detain (indefinitely) many, many more people than AQ members. No one knows what “substantial support” means. It sounds similar to “material support,” which means any donation. No one, including the administration, knows what “associated forces” means. I might worry less about the issue if the power Congress is authorizing weren’t so large. We’re talking about indefinite detention here. No indictment saying what you did. No trial to determine your guilt or innocence.

          • gogo

            Exactly, this bill is not clear but gives a lot of power to the President.

            I have been to many conservative sites the last two days reading many articles about this and 50% think the detention does not apply to US citizens and 50% think it does. How can so many experts get opposite opinions (at least lets assume they are experts) if it is all so straight forward.

            And listen to M Levin’s show on Friday 12/16 where he talks a lot about Congress voting on bills they have not read.

            Seriously, dont the people in Congress, at least the Republicans, have enough of a spine to say NO I wont vote Yes on a bill that I have not read.

            Such basic common sense as dont sign anything you have not read does not apply to these people. Crazy Nutters

  • skorrent1

    The statement: “Our Constitution does not permit the federal government to detain American citizens indefinitely without charge or trial.” is simply not true!

    Let’s start with the War Between (sic) the States, or whatever you wish to call the 1861-65 altercation. The Union did not recognize the authority of the Confederacy, so everyone in the South was an “American citizen”. Those captured on the battlefield or while giving “substantial support” to the rebels were “detained indefinitely” without individual “charge or trial”.

    More recently, The German forces of WWII had numerous “American citizens” by our definition. Those rounded up from the battlefield were not given special attention. Those who donned US uniforms and infiltrated during the Battle of the Bulge were summarily shot along with their German friends.

    War is hell, fellows. Let’s not get too sissified to fight it.

    • aesthete

      like we fought WWII and the Civil War (as full intensity conflicts depriving the citizenry of substantial liberties), then you are proposing a police state that will be, by leaps and bounds, more tyrannical than anything that the Dems have proposed. Considering that we have already effectively neutralized Al-Qaeda, perhaps you could tell us what great benefits would accrue such that they would befit the great sacrifices that you ask of US citizens.

      • flguy

        Actually, the U.S. involvement in WWII lasted just 2.8 years or so, from Dec. 7, 1941 until Aug. 1945, and the Civil War lasted from the spring of 1961 until April 1865, just four years. But I get your point. :)

        ~Historian Mike

        • aesthete

          If we’re planning on fighting a long-term war like the WoT in the same way as WWII, Civil War, etc :)

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        given the position of this country, militarily and morally, evil always has been and always will be at war with us. I would say that this bill makes it easier for a CINC to openly detain those that would otherwise be killed or detained surreptitiously, but otherwise is quite an irrelevance.

        • aesthete

          then what’s the need for a new law? I *like* that a President has to act surreptitiously should he wish to deprive citizens of their rights.

          I understand that there’s never a definite end to a conflict, but the “war on terror” has essentially no expiration or endstate. Today, at present, Al Qaeda is defunct and the parties responsible for 9/11 have been brought to justice. Yet, hawks insist that the war isn’t over. I don’t think that it’s unreasonable to point out that there doesn’t seem to be a well-defined (and realistic) end game for the war on terror.

          • JSobieski

            (if they have the right technology), it seems like there has to be an ongoing exception to the normal rules.

            Misuse of that power is a political question.

            My concern is taking it one step further—-detention without end WITHOUT public notice.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            I agree with ski’s response below. I would say that the issue was best left to the vague Executive powers rather than a codified license. But that is arguable. more later

          • JSobieski

            The reason why terrorists commit acts of terrorism is that it is their best option to kill us.

            Traditional military option proved futile against Israel, so they adapted.

            Terrorism is a response to the civilzed world’s laws of war and the importance of uniformed armies.

            Its not an accident that OBL and others became free agents. They will always use their best alternative to kill us.

          • aesthete

            it does not seem to me that a careful, judicious attempt at balance is occurring at all — quite the contrary.

            The National Defense Authorization Act of 2011 is a *massive* bill which virtually no one has read or reviewed in full. 1000+ pages of text is far too much to expect the public or Congress to gain a full appreciation of its ramifications

            In response, those who crafted and are pushing the bill — mostly Congressional Republicans — are essentially saying, “ho-hum, nothing to see here”. Yet, the bill has already been amended to (among other things) exempt US citizens from Sec 1022, which *requires* that the federal government indefinitely detain individuals suspected by the government of being a part of organizations tied to Al Qaeda. This being the case, I must make the following observations:

            1) Clearly, there *was* something that either slipped the notice of Congressional Republicans, or that they otherwise slipped in, which *is* controversial and worthy of debate. This, to me, says that the “nothing to see here” attitude exemplified by Congressman’s McKeon’s post, is entirely inappropriate and problematic for the purposes of the debate which you rightly say needs to happen regarding trade-offs between security and liberty.

            2) The offending provisos does not appear to have been necessary to guarantee our safety from the aftermath of 9/11 to the present. Yet, they also call for the government to openly violate the Bill of Rights. I understand that this is necessary at times (cue the WWII/Civil War citizen rights violation clipshow that hawks seem to love so much). However, the proponents of this bill have been loath to say why this is one of those times and contexts. I remember that during the debate over the PATRIOT Act, there was a good deal of evidence offered by the pro side for their claims that it was a boon for national security: I don’t think it was a good trade-off and disagree with it, but I will acknowledge that it *was* a trade-off. How do we know that these provisos are a significant boon to national security, as the PATRIOT Act was? So far, I haven’t seen evidence from the pro side of *specific*, *real world* cases where it would have helped, or where it will help in the future. The case for the provisos has been startlingly poor thus far.

            3) Given that one of the offending sections was partly amended, it seems to me that it was either a) not all that important to our continued security, or at least b) not worth the political problems that it would have created. Again, why is this section so important?

            It seems to me that those against the bill’s offending provisos are far more willing to acknowledge the trade-offs inherent in national security than those for, who don’t seem to see a problem at all with violating an integral part of the Bill of Rights.

          • Dave_A

            The end-game is when the threats die down, and we can relegate them to history…

            We’ve come a long way in that regard, but each time we cut off another one of Hydra’s heads, a new one pops up… See Yemen as an example…

            The big problem is that we don’t know exactly what victory will be like – we’ll just know it when we see it….

          • aesthete

            Look, I like killing terrorists. I like our drone attacks, and I like that we’re kicking *ss and taking names in Yemen. None of that has ever bothered me. Crafting laws that violate the Bill of Rights and passing them without virtually any public debate or thought for unintended consequences? That bothers me, doubly so because the end state and terms for victory are so ambiguous. Will this war end with definite terms of surrender? I think not, and I’d rather not be at war with Eastasia in perpetuity, thank you very much.

  • runner12

    with this diary. After witnessing the massive overreach of Obama & Co., you can now count me as someone who is very uncomfortable with the ambiguity of this bill.

    I appreciate the fact that we have some people in Congress who are actually thinking about whether this item in the bill is constitutional or not. It is something we should ask regarding every bill that comes up in Congress.

  • daniel22

    with them. It seems pretty clear to me that the bill was written to be purposely ambiguous. For those that have the “nothing to see here” attitude I would say are being blind on purpose. History has examples of how “substantial” support can be defined. It does not have to be monetary or materially supportive. Speaking or writing in any way not condemning certain acts or groups can and has been defined as being substantially supportive. You can check out McCarthy era commie hunts to see how far it can be abused. I used that as an easy reference on how hysteria can muddle ones judgement. After the 9/11 attacks the Palestinians had a party celebrating the acts. According to this bill that gives substantive support to the terrorists. If you support the Palestinians you too would be counted as giving substantive support and liable even if a citizen of the U.S. CAIR is a group that has been tied to Hezbollah and thereby terrorism. Should you support CAIR and Hezbollah commits any act of terrorism you would fall under the “substantive support” provision.
    The most telling of the intent of this law would be the defeat of the Feinstein amendment. Keep in mind I do not like that lady by any stretch. With the defeat of her amendment it cemented the intent to indefinitely detain American citizens natural or otherwise even if on U.S. soil. I did check the roll call vote and found that Sen. Reid voted for the amendment while Sen. Heller voted against. If Reid is Obama’s waterboy why would he vote to not allow the detention of citizens while Heller a so called conservative vote to allow this travesty?
    In closing when it comes to law it should be specific. With the vagueries of definitions in this bill there is too much latitude given to the government. That latitude can only lead to confusion and abuse.

  • 912defender

    They won’t be able to waterboard detainees! Right?

  • RDCook

    I consider myself fortunate to have Buck as my congressma. He is an honest and ethical person and has always represented the interests of the people in his district. I sent him an email recently expressing the opinion of many who have commented on this bill and the confusion it has caused related to our rights under the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments.

    I suggested that since there was such a level of confusion and suspicion that Congress could solve those fears very easily by attaching an amendment guaranteering that the provisions of the bill would be expresly forbidden from application to American citizens. I have not recieved a reply but it has only been a few days.
    Everyone should email their congress person and demand that such an amendment be attached.

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